Conversations Worth Having
Want to change the world? Start here.
What if the most powerful tool in community action isn’t funding, policy, or programming, but conversation?
In this episode of The Thinking CAAP, Beck Moore is joined by Kelly Stewart and Michael Emmart to explore how strategic dialogue shapes organizational culture, strengthens families, and prevents unnecessary system involvement.
From the PACE framework to Appreciative Inquiry, the conversation dives into:
How language and bias influence outcomes
Why generative questions unlock community-led solutions
A real-world “walkable school bus” initiative that improved attendance without new funding
How leaders can create culture through intentional dialogue
If you’re ready to shift from problem-focused thinking to possibility-centered engagement, this episode will challenge how you listen, lead, and serve.
To learn more and connect with Kelly Stewart, visit her website -> https://www.thepositivebusiness.com/
To learn more and connect with Michael Emmart, visit -> https://case.edu/weatherhead/fowler/programs/just-conversations
Thinking CAAP Episode 32 Highlights
[00:00] Introduction and Guest Backgrounds on Strategic Planning and Child Welfare
Host Beck Moore introduces guests Kelly Stewart, a strategic planning consultant, and Michael Emmert, an expert in child welfare and juvenile justice.
They share personal insights and backgrounds, setting the stage for a discussion on organizational culture and meaningful conversations.
[04:29] The Role of Conversations in Shaping Organizational Culture
The guests discuss how conversations influence workplace and organizational culture, emphasizing that dialogue shapes engagement, empowerment, and trust.
They explore the interplay between culture, policies, and strategy in fostering positive environments and effective communication within organizations.
[07:00] Language, Bias, and Rules of Engagement in Organizational Conversations
Beck and Michael highlight the impact of language and implicit bias on how clients and families are perceived and treated.
They discuss intentional language use and establishing rules of engagement to build trust and set standards for organizational policies and strategic planning.
[09:49] Overview of the PACE Framework for Community Engagement and Prevention
Michael explains the Prevention through Appreciative Community Engagement (PACE) framework, focusing on shifting systems to work with communities as partners.
PACE aims to leverage community strengths to prevent harm and reduce overreach by social service systems like child welfare.
[13:58] Connecting Community Action and Appreciative Inquiry to Support Families
Beck relates PACE to community action agencies’ holistic approach to serving families by addressing interconnected needs.
Kelly emphasizes that appreciative inquiry aligns with community action missions by fostering positive, strengths-based conversations.
[15:31] Appreciative Inquiry Frameworks for Community Growth
Kelly Stewart discusses how appreciative inquiry frameworks help communities focus on possibilities and life-giving forces rather than problems alone, fostering engagement, visioning, and optimal functioning through positive conversations and suspending immediate solutions.
[19:13] Practical Appreciative Inquiry Questions to Ignite Visioning
Kelly shares three core appreciative inquiry questions to help individuals and groups recall exceptional experiences, identify valued factors, and envision their highest hopes, transforming dialogue and action planning from problem-solving to possibility-focused approaches.
[22:53] PACE Framework for Strengthening Families and Preventing System Involvement
Michael Emmart explains how PACE brings system partners together using strengths-based conversations to align responses with existing family and community protective factors, leading to lighter interventions, improved relationships, and upstream supports that reduce unnecessary child welfare and juvenile justice involvement.
[24:37] Enhancing Collaboration Between Schools and Child Welfare Systems
Michael highlights how PACE fosters shared learning spaces between schools and child welfare, increasing awareness of community resources and enabling schools to respond early and appropriately, activating protective factors and building collective efficacy to prevent crises.
[30:49] Real-World Example: Addressing Elementary School Truancy
Michael shares a tangible example from New York where partners collaborated to tackle early elementary absenteeism, emphasizing the importance of addressing truancy habits before they escalate in later grades, demonstrating PACE’s practical impact on community challenges.
[31:46] Addressing Student Absenteeism Through Community-Led Safety Initiatives
Michael Emmart explains how high absenteeism in a walkable district was linked to parents' safety concerns on routes to school, leading to a community-driven “walkable school bus” initiative where volunteers escort children, improving attendance and fostering neighborhood vigilance without external funding.
[38:10] Challenging Assumptions and Bias in Community Work
The conversation highlights the importance of recognizing implicit and explicit biases when assessing parental engagement, urging professionals to avoid assumptions about neglect and instead listen deeply to understand the real barriers families face regarding school attendance and safety.
[39:25] The Power of Generative Questions in Community Engagement
Kelly Stewart discusses appreciative inquiry and generative questions that promote reflection and discovery, emphasizing their role in uncovering hidden strengths and possibilities, exemplified by asking parents open-ended questions about what would enable regular school attendance.
[42:42] Practical Examples of Generative Questions to Inspire Solutions
To clarify generative questioning, Kelly and Michael provide examples such as “What would make school attendance possible for your child?”
These open-ended questions encourage thoughtful responses, fostering shared understanding and collaborative problem-solving in community and leadership contexts.
[45:09] Navigating Silence and Reflection in Generative Dialogue
The hosts address the natural silence that follows generative questions, framing it as an opportunity for deep reflection.
They stress the importance of setting the context vividly before asking and allowing space for thoughtful responses, which leads.
[45:55] Using the Podium Moment to Inspire Growth and Reflection
Kelly Stewart introduces the "podium moment" concept, encouraging teams to envision success by reflecting on accomplishments and surprises, fostering self-challenge and growth through relevant, customized frameworks that inspire individual learning and improvement.
[47:49] Connecting with Experts and Resources for Appreciative Inquiry
Michael Emmart and Kelly Stewart share contact information and recommend resources like the Institute for Just Outcomes, Conversations Worth Having, and the Cooper Rider Center for Appreciative Inquiry, guiding listeners to deepen their understanding and application of Appreciative Inquiry methods.
[49:14] Real-World Examples of Appreciative Inquiry in Community Action
Kelly highlights Tri County Community Action’s immersive client experience and Bucks County Opportunity Council’s dream-focused intake process, demonstrating how these organizations use Appreciative Inquiry to deepen empathy, client engagement, and meaningful program outcomes.
[50:40] Recognizing and Appreciating Community Action Teams’ Impact
Beck Moore praises the dedication, resourcefulness, and action-oriented mindset of Community Action teams, emphasizing their vital role in addressing community needs and expressing gratitude for their ongoing efforts and leadership in service.
[51:35] Closing Remarks and Invitation for Future Engagement
Beck Moore concludes the episode by thanking guests Kelly Stewart and Michael Emmart, inviting listeners to subscribe and submit community action questions, and expressing eagerness for future conversations on the Thinking CAAP podcast.
Episode 32 Transcript
00:00:00
What's up, everybody? I'm Beck Moore, CEO of Community Action Association of Pennsylvania and your host of the Thinking CAAP podcast. I want to say thank you to everybody for joining us on today's conversation and joining us for some special guests with me. Unfortunately, my co-host, Heather Holloway, was not able to join today, but that's okay.
Hopefully, I will keep up the energy in her spirit and look forward to her joining us on one of our next recordings.
00:00:23
So with me today, I have who I'd like to call a friend and colleague, Kelly Stewart. Kelly can say hello. Hello. And then also with me is hopefully a new friend, Michael Emmart. Am I saying that right, Michael?
00:00:37
You are indeed. And so wanted to give them the opportunity to share a little bit about themselves, things that probably aren't reflected in their bio. Before we jump into our discussion for today, which is around conversations worth having, a book and topic that I really appreciate. But, Kelly, if you want to just start by telling us a little bit about yourself and tell our audience a little bit about yourself. Sure, absolutely.
00:00:58
Thanks, Beck. It's a pleasure to be here with you both. I respect you both tremendously and I'm happy to be part of this conversation. In a nutshell, I tell people that I help them find opportunities and challenges and change through strategic planning and improving workplace communications. Imagine my surprise and delight when 10 years ago, I found these frameworks because they really did help raise my awareness for things that I had believed would always be possible in the workplace and in communities.
00:01:32
Right. Which would be less adversarial, more connectedness. And there had been times in my career when I was told, that's not the way business is done, I thought, but could it be? And so when I found these two frameworks that we'll talk about later. So I don't want to go into too much of it now, but when I found them, I was like, yes, this is it.
00:01:52
And this is what I'd like to be able to bring to others who might feel burdens they don't need to carry or to give them a different way of a different lens to look at things that are impacting not only their work and how they do that, but also the people that they serve. Thank you for that. And I will just go on the record by saying Kelly was our strategic planning consultant that we utilized here at CAAP, and we had a great time utilizing her. I know that you've worked across a lot of community action agencies, and so we'll just give you a shout out on the front end of this, that if you're an organization, of course, if you're an organization out there looking for a strategic planning consultant, Kelly would absolutely give her my recommendation over and above many others. So if you're looking for that contact, reach out.
00:02:40
Happy to connect you to Kelly. And then, Michael, if you could share a little bit about yourself for our listeners. Sure. Well, I'm someone who spent nearly 30 years now working in the area of child welfare and juvenile justice. Started off doing direct care staff working in a voluntary agency, and ended my career sort of formally as a subject matter expert here in New York working in child welfare around what's called permanency, which is making sure that children have stable homes, either with their parents, with their, with their relatives, or in some other sort of custody arrangement.
00:03:23
Now, a couple of years ago, moved into academia. I serve as the executive director at the Institute for Just Outcomes Through Conversations, which is hosted by Case Western Reserve University. And I serve as an assistant professor of criminology and social work at Keuka College, which is a small liberal arts college here in Central New York. Nice. Well, thank you for, thank you both for joining and thank you for the suggestion about Michael joining the podcast today.
00:03:50
Excited to have this discussion. So I think before we jump into some of the questions that we shared over, I want to start with a little bit of a simple and yet complex question, which is totally off script, which is, you know, on brand for me. But when I think about conversations worth having and I think about the process that you follow, Kelly, in the strategic planning side of things, to me, there's workplace culture. Organizational culture is paramount in order for an organization to be successful. In order for a project to be successful, there's project culture.
00:04:29
And a lot of times to me, again, those things matter more than policies of an organization, more than the strategic plan of a conversation. And the conversations that we have shape that culture for you all. How do you see the framework of conversations worth having? PACE framework shape organizational culture. I think this gives a good framework for then digging into some of these different pieces.
00:04:59
How does that manifest in organizational culture?
00:05:06
Which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Culture, policies and strategy? How does one inform the other? Michael, either one of you can answer this question. If one of you wants to take a shot first and fill in the blanks, go ahead.
00:05:18
I think maybe I will start to say that, yes, while we are working within human systems, which is where the community action work takes place, but certainly in other areas and still working with humans, because that's where we are right now. I think it is really important to understand that it is the nature of our conversations that really shape and in some ways influence how people engage with one another, whether they're going to be forthcoming or whether they're going to shut down, whether they feel empowered or whether they feel restricted. So in that way, not only do they shape how people engage with one another, they also influence what happens next. And I think that's part of the culture that you're describing there, Michael, anything. You want to add to that?
00:06:11
Well, I got to thinking as you and Kelly were talking that we've had a lot of discussion, especially recently in society, about things like implicit and explicit bias in my work, both in my background and now helping communities and helping social services agencies with their work in communities. The way that we talk about families, the way we talk about children, the way we talk about students, the way we talk about our customers or our clients or. Or however, whatever terminology is used, depending on the situation, it really is powerful, right? So if we talk about our customers in a way that's depreciating, it has an impact. If we talk about children and families in a way that's depreciating, it has a similar impact.
00:07:00
And so those conversations that we have are really fateful, not only in the way that we think about our current circumstances, but ultimately, I think, in the way that we treat other people. Whether or not we have a full awareness of that or not is certainly a question for society to grapple with, but I think it's undeniable at this point that those perspectives and those things that we say and those things that we believe about people has an impact ultimately on the way that they're treated by both us and the service systems that we work with. I can't remember which episode it was, but we had a discussion with our Lancaster Community Action Agency, and we talked about language justice, right. And the discussion around the words that we use. And they've walked a path of real specific intentionality, of unboxing language and sort of putting some, I think, parameters and guardrails around.
00:07:55
Here's where. Here's what we're trying to drive to. We're not saying you can't say these things or use this terminology, but I think that is really indicative of what some of what you're talking about, not all, but some of what you're talking about there. And I think that creates what I would describe as the rules of engagement in then the conversation around policy and the conversation around strategic planning. It sort of sets.
00:08:21
Here's the baseline in which we're willing to operate and set a standard for one another. I think so. And two things about the policies. Right. And procedures.
00:08:31
I think that two of the ways those things come to be is from someone's oh, crap moment. Right. And then we get a policy so it doesn't happen again. And then I think also there's a trust issue there or a lack of trust. And so that's the guardrail.
00:08:47
Right. And in some cases it could be purely directional if you're out in the field. Right. We've got these policies, policies and procedures that you can follow so that you feel supported. But I think in the of the first two that I mentioned, that's where the conversations really kind of come into play, where people feel empowered to not be silent if they see something that is a potential oh, crap happening.
00:09:11
Right. But also to convey trust between the leadership team and the managers and between the managers and the supervisors. Yeah, yeah. I think one of the frameworks in which I operate is always assuming positive intent in conversations and try to help my teams understand that. So if we do have a hard conversation or I ask a question, know that, assume that it's coming from positive intent.
00:09:35
I'm not asking the question to be critical. And so we've sort of, you know, again, we've established some of that. That framework in place. Okay. So let's get to kind of some of the questions that we've, we've put out there for you all to consider a little bit and talk through.
00:09:49
So, Michael, for you, if you could give us just an overview of your prevention through appreciation or appreciative community engagement and the PACE framework and what's really inspired its development for folks to understand. Yeah, sure. So pace, which is a lot easier to say than prevention through appreciative community engagement, at its core, it's really a framework for helping to systems. So in a lot of the work I do, we're talking about child welfare and juvenile justice. Work with communities rather than on them.
00:10:23
Right. Which is often the way that things tend to work. PACE grew out of, I think, probably two observations for my work and focus on prevention and systems change. So first it's that most systems are designed to respond after something occurs. Right.
00:10:44
And so Kelly even pointed to it in the area of policy development. We develop policies afterwards, we put a sign on the back of our sunshield that says do not drive with sunshield in place. Probably because somebody drove with the sun shield in place. It's why McDonald's coffee says it's hot. Exactly why, you know, you're not supposed to stick your hand in your lawnmower blades, for instance.
00:11:06
Right. Like somebody did it. Yeah, somebody did it, and then somebody got litigious. Right. And then second, really, it was because communities, they possess so much in the way of positive strengths and protective factors that can absolutely work to prevent harm in the first place.
00:11:27
Right. But those strengths are often, whether they're ignored or underutilized or suppressed in some way, intentionally or unintentionally, you know, it's probably different from situation to situation.
00:11:40
And so ultimately, what that does is it removes power from communities and moves us dangerously close to what I believe is a universal truth. And that universal truth is that it takes a village to raise a child, whether we're talking about child welfare, education, mental health, whatever the case may be. And so prevention is about bringing together some of my studies around pace, appreciative inquiry and principles of reinvention and community engagement and try to shift that dynamic a bit. And so it helps systems to move along a spectrum of community engagement that we would see in the literature. I promise I won't turn this into a lecture of any sort, but really just moving from ignoring or managing community to really partnering with and deferring to them.
00:12:32
And so families and communities become that first line of response, as opposed to our social service systems being that first line of response. And so child welfare agencies in particular, they probably only need to be involved in maybe 25 to 40% of the cases they're involved with, but they're stretched thin by being the first line of response to things like poverty and mental health struggles and substance use disorder. And so we see an overreach in nearly every jurisdiction in the country. And that overreach is really contrary to their missions. And I will say finally, and then I'll wrap up.
00:13:12
I don't usually have to do a lot of persuading of either the leaders or the caseworkers in those systems because they recognize it and they want to work on the issues that truly matter within their purview and defer as much as they can of those other issues to less traumatizing, less impactful service service opportunities. Yeah, I think it's interesting because in some ways, there's crossover with some of the intentionality of how community action operates. Right. I think, you know, the perspective for. For most of our agencies, if someone's coming for this service, then the likelihood is like, if I'm coming for food service, I also probably also need this.
00:13:58
And so when we think about the family dynamics, resources that an individual has. And that could mean truly support mechanisms within the family that surrounds them, chosen family, friends, other community resources. We know that someone has the opportunity to be more successful if they also have all of these other resources. And so the organizations try to wrap their arms around the person to say, okay, you may be coming for this need, but you also need, like, let us talk to you about these other things because the likelihood is there. And then how do we create a structure in which I think through kind of positive inquiry and discussions.
00:14:41
Right. How can we help this family individual so that they don't have to ultimately be reliant on these other systems? And that to me, community action sort of represents. And this is not why we're here to talk about this, but I think it's important for our listeners to understand why we're having this conversation. The crossover is that they become the gap fillers or identifying the gaps before somebody even potentially has the possibility of falling into a gap.
00:15:05
Right. So anyway, that's my soapbox for today's episode. So, Kelly, for those who are potentially unfamiliar with conversations worth having, appreciative inquiry and why they're so valuable kind of in this work, can you provide some context for everybody to really kind of get a handle on why we're talking about this? Sure. I think what makes them really valuable to community action is that they are mission aligned.
00:15:31
In most cases, most communities are striving to be their best and these frameworks make that easier for them. Right. Because we're not necessarily raised and it's not necessarily reinforced in our culture to really kind of focus on possibilities and to, to talk about what brings the organization life. Right. You know, and what, what we call them, life giving forces, actually.
00:15:58
And I think that that's a big part of why the frameworks exist. Right. It's. Without it, it's kind of like the sound of one hand clapping. Problem solving alone.
00:16:11
Right. Good. Necessary. I always say I like my pilots and my medical device manufacturers to be really good at identifying what's broken, what's missing.
00:16:22
But when it comes to really kind of defining a vision. Right, right. Saying this is what we desire for our community, then we need to look at the possibilities. And I think that when we ground that work in what brings us life, you know, what is working, what do we want most, then that's where, kind of like as humans, again, I'll say that in a human system, that's where we see this kind of optimal functioning. Right.
00:16:52
Enhanced capabilities. We are more likely to Come forward with the thing that we really, really want rather than thinking that it's. There's a binary kind of yes or no response to what we're. We're doing. Like that will work, that won't work.
00:17:06
We don't know yet. We're imagining what this future might look like that we really want for ourselves. And so I think that the principles and practices of appreciative inquiry are, are just essential, right. For envisioning that future and how do we move forward to it. What conversations worth having did was kind of take those practices and principles and boiled the ocean, if you will, because there's so much wonderfulness packed into appreciative inquiry and said we can help you with a framework where you can bring those principles and practices into your everyday conversations when they're happening in the moment.
00:17:42
So I think that they are mission aligned, they're accessible, they're natural. I often talk about like taking the next natural step. These feel like next natural steps when you're having conversations. They don't feel like you're kind of on the hot seat and having to come up with a solution right away. In fact, some of the beauty is you're suspending the solution for a moment.
00:18:09
Yeah, I, One of the things that I. There's a brothers that are authors and I just love the way that they write and sort of boil things down. So there's a lot of alignment with what you're talking about and what a lot they talk about. Chip and Dan Heath. And one of the things that they talk about, right.
00:18:28
Is this idea that we're built as humans to fix problems. Right. We take a survey, we see the list, we fix the problems. But. And what they will say in their videos and in their, their, their work is that, but it, that doesn't, that doesn't get people excited.
00:18:43
It just ‘whelms’ people. Right. They're neither overwhelmed or underwhelmed, they're just whelmed. And what you're talking about I think gets people excited, right? Like they want to be part of creating most people, not all, maybe, but to think about the what ifs.
00:19:01
Right? Right. What might be possible. Right. If we did this and you know, just for listeners and then Michael, I'll stop.
00:19:13
But I think that one way to kind of start with appreciative inquiry, whether it's with your internal dialogue, which is where I encourage a lot of people to start while you're getting used to it, right. Or with others, is to think about that something that you want that, that big thing that seems even maybe a little bit out of reach. And there are three kind of generic questions of a pressure of inquiry to help start you getting there. And one of them is to recall a past experience. Tell me about a time, think about a time.
00:19:44
If you're in Two by Two, you know, tell me about a time. But think about a time when you were part of something that was truly exceptional, when you felt most engaged, when the outcomes were better than what you thought they were going to be, when you went into it. And just sit in that moment and really think to yourself, analyze, if you will, if that feels more comfortable, what made that great. And that's when you start to uncover, oh, well, it was the people involved, it was the timeline, it was whatever those things were, right? It was the partners we worked with.
00:20:17
There's just a way of understanding where you can recall, hey, I've done something similar like this in the past. And then what is it about that good experience that you value the most? And what do you value about the team that you're working with? If that's what you're working on, because that's what you can replicate and scale, that's what you want to replicate and scale, right? And then the third question is about the future.
00:20:44
And what would your highest hopes for this future be? I have another way of saying it. Beck, I'm sure you've heard me say this before. How good could it get, right? This thing that you want, if you just spent, I don't know, a minute wondering, imagining how good could this get and you start writing those things down, it is going to transform what you do next.
00:21:07
It's going to transform how you talk about it almost immediately with anyone else. And it's going to transform that action plan, you know, that we all rush to get to. Problem, solution, implement, right? And I'm saying problem, possibility, how good could it get? Implement.
00:21:26
Well, and when I think about the framework in which that this is operated with at CAAP and Michael, I promise I'll get back to you with a couple questions. Is that it's. It oftentimes in other discussions, planning processes, it's. It's almost been so restrictive.
00:21:45
And for us, I think it's opened up our eyes to big opportunities, given us some keystones to reflect back on in terms of like, is this the right thing or not the right thing? And also created some big celebration moments for us as we've reached some things that, you know, just kind of happened organically through conversations that we were exploring because of the what if Conversations, you know, because it encouraged us, I think, to then have the appreciative inquiry conversations of the relationships that we've had. So, you know, we'll just say that out loud. So let's want to kind of give folks some practical things to think about in terms of where, you know for you, Michael, how you've applied PACE in different communities to help keep kiddos out of welfare and juvenile justice system. So let's kind of transition to that part of the conversation and if you can give folks some kind of moments of real application that you've put in practice.
00:22:53
Yeah. So.
00:22:57
I think that what it starts with is bringing together people, bringing together system partners and community organizations probably very much like yours, into really structured, strengths focused conversations. And so we use tools like empathy mapping and appreciative questioning, like Kelly shared and shared visioning to identify what are those protective factors already present in the families and in the neighborhoods, and then look to align system responses in support of those strengths rather than overriding them. Right. And what, what ends up resulting is sort of a lighter touch. Interventions that build on family capacity instead of escalating surveillance or escalating control, which is really often the ways that systems respond.
00:23:48
And I think that we see a lot of stronger coordination between these systems, whether schools, community based organizations, family support services, et cetera, that. And they really focused on relationships. And then the families report that they feel a lot more support than monitored, and the partners feel like they're able to work upstream rather than having to wait for formal referrals and formal system involvement. One of the real practical ways that PACE has made a difference is in relationships that develop within those meetings. I often tell folks at the start of a project that the worst possible outcome is that there'll be a lot better relationships between the folks that are in that room.
00:24:37
Right. So that's sort of the bar being set low, which usually gets the attention. And so one area of relationship that there's often a lot of conflict is between schools and CAAP folks. Right. The schools call CAAP.
00:24:53
They feel like CAAP doesn't respond quick enough, so they call again and they complain. And whether they're formally complaining or informally complaining, and it's really due to a disconnect and a misunderstandings between those two systems and how they work. Educators really do understand the difference between neglect and challenges that are rooted in things like poverty and mental health and substance abuse. The gap really isn't awareness, it's visibility. Right.
00:25:25
Schools often don't have a clear understanding of community strengths. The Resources that are available within the communities to support families beyond that formal system involvement. And unfortunately, that reality sort of combined with our risk averse nature, right? Especially within large service systems, it means that that child abuse hotline is the first line of response. And so during pace, we try to create sort of a shared learning space.
00:25:55
Schools hear directly from those community partners what existing supports there are. The child welfare folks gain a clearer picture of sort of how the schools experience and navigate these concerns. And as a result, the schools sort of expand their response options, right? Instead of solely relying on the child abuse hotline, now they know about other trusted community resources that can address those concerns earlier and more appropriately when the child welfare response isn't needed. And what that does is it activates what we'd call protective factors, right?
00:26:34
Strong relationships and social supports and accesses to help and sense of belonging before families reach a point of crisis. And at the same time, it builds collective efficacy, right? Because those schools and those community organizations and those systems are developing a shared belief that they can work together to keep children and families supported.
00:26:58
That's the heart of prevention. If we were to have a prevention scientist come in, when those protective factors get strengthened and collective efficacy is high, communities become better equipped to respond to challenges and families become better equipped at responding to challenges. And, and without escalating things to where you have people in contact with systems that were never meant to be a first line of response. But we've moved away from that village that raises a child so much now that systems are the response to everything, right? And I don't know enough about your work to speak into the work that you're doing there in Pennsylvania.
00:27:41
But, but what that does is it Gatekeeps, what can really be natural human behavior, right? If you're walking down the street and you see someone drop something that they're carrying, you, you bend over to pick it up. But if there's a system there that's supposed to bend over and pick it up, eventually we stop bending over to help our neighbor, right? Because we think, well, that's supposed to be somebody's job and really it's all of our jobs, right? And so we want to strengthen the community connections.
00:28:12
And at the same time, what that does is it allows those child welfare and juvenile justice systems to focus on the cases that they really should be involved in that 25 to 40% of work that they're doing where there's clear abuse or clear neglect or a clear criminogenic disposition amongst vulnerable youngsters. And so they're able to have 100% of their attention going where it needs to go. So it's really best for both parties. Yeah, I mean, I see this play out in my own life in both good ways and not so good ways with one of my kiddos who has special needs and trying to figure out. Right.
00:29:01
Like, and I liken this to something that's within the framework of Sandler sales. And it's really this concept of how do you identify what someone's pain points are in order to sell them the best thing for their pain? And while it's not the same, it's still the same. Right. So the idea is ultimately that in a sales environment, you ask people questions to understand what they're buying for rather than just sell features and benefits, because the features and benefits may not be applicable to somebody's life.
00:29:29
And so in order for them to buy into the thing, you need to understand what they're really experiencing. And so for me and my family. Right. Like, part of what I would apply this to is trying to figure out. So my son has adhd, he's autistic, he has various attachment disorders.
00:29:49
And so what that means is most systems really aren't built to serve the things that he needs. And so it's not so simple as just to get a mental health provider in his life. Right. It's that he needs other layers of care. So right now we're talking about Special Olympics, for instance, so that he's not just operating within a therapeutic environment because that's not really going to help at the end of the day, he needs all these other outlets.
00:30:15
And so there's layers to what his providers are talking about? In some of our discussions, none of it's simple. Right. And so as a follow up question, can you give everybody a real tangible situation example where you've brought partners together to really make kind of a tangible difference, like, you know, kind of a. Not a case study, but for lack of a better phrase right now, like a case study where you really saw this come to fruition and created a real, a real change.
00:30:49
Yeah, a real simple one was some work that I did with a county in New York around getting kids to school. And so it really predates Covid. But since COVID absenteeism is a significant problem and when you think of kids not going to school, if we were in a large group, I might say, well, you know, what age do you think truancy becomes a real big problem. So I'll let you play the role of the general public. Beck, what age does truancy really become a problem?
00:31:23
I'm going to say high school. High school, it's a good guess. It's really about second or third grade. Right. And so it's our elementary kids who, when they develop the habits of not going to school when they're very young, those habits become, for a number of reasons, we won't go into exacerbated as they hit junior high and high school.
00:31:46
And so we were working with a community where they were seeing 40, 50% absenteeism amongst even students as young as kindergarten. And what you might very quickly jump to is, well, maybe the parents don't care about school. They're not committed.
00:32:07
The parents are too busy with other things or some sort of neglect issue. And really, when talking with the community, what it was is that parents were afraid of the route that their children were taking to school. And so if there wasn't a way for them to get a ride for their child, many of them didn't have cars. This is what we call a walkable district, right. Which is.
00:32:31
Which is where, you know, 80 to 90% of the kids are going to walk to school, usually because we're talking about an urban environment. And so if they weren't able to get their child to ride to school by someone or didn't have the money to do it with Uber or something like that, they just didn't send their child because it wasn't safe due to gang violence, due to folks who were struggling with homelessness due to substance use in the community, and there being things like needles on the playground. And so what the response was in recognizing that there really were a lot of strengths within these families. They were focused on safety, and safety had to trump education at the moment, which I think is probably a choice every parent would make. All right?
00:33:16
And there was a recognition, and we went through a process of identifying a number of resources in the community, right? Because it wasn't everyone in the community on the route to school that was a danger to children. In fact, 99% of the folks on the route to school were protection for children. Their strategy was to develop what they called a walkable school bus, which is that they pulled together folks from the community. They trained them in things that, well, a took care of risk factors.
00:33:48
Right. So they trained them in, you know, all of the normal things that you need to train folks who volunteer with a school, right. Child abuse reporting and, you know, harassment and all those sorts of things. But they also train them on how to get in contact with other resources in the Community folks who were working to reduce gun and gang violence in their community if they saw something. And these folks volunteer and get trained and they walk groups of 20 and 30 kids to school every day so that parents are able to have their children receive an education while also not feeling worried about the safety of their children.
00:34:27
And some of the people on the route to the community are doing the walking and others of them just volunteered to sit on their front porch while they had their morning coffee because there's dozens of eyeballs now. And you know what? The folks who, the 0.1% of folks who were maybe a risk to children or were involved in some nefarious activity, they're really not interested in being around when everyone's on their front porch looking. And so they've went elsewhere. Or maybe the hope might be that they ceased engaging in that behavior altogether.
00:35:00
But at the end of the day, the children were able to get to school. And the children are developing positive habits around school attendance and they're of course developing positive habits around learning and they're having access to their lunch programs and all those sorts of things that are really important in both their own development, but also addressing this issue of attendance. Right. So as a real practical sense of coming together, the system's not looking at those parents as, oh, they don't care about school. They're not invested in their children.
00:35:31
You know, they're too worried about, you know, they're partying. No, no, no, no. It was that their, their children weren't safe on the way to school. And when we got together with the community, it was very easy to identify. It was great.
00:35:43
Somebody brought in a big blown up map of the district and they had little pins where all the volunteers would be. And there were a lot of pins. There was need for more pins. And, and it really is something that's providing safety for these kids and in a very high needs district where there isn't a lot of educational opportunity. And my hope is that you'll see 10 years from now, as this is a project that just started this year, 10 years from now those kids are going to high school and their graduation rates are higher in that community, which we'll know will mean that it has residual impact down the line in areas like juvenile delinquency and generational poverty and employability and problem solving and critical thinking skills and relational strengths and the other resources that come with that.
00:36:32
So it's a generation changer for that community. At least that's my hope. And that's something that's entirely developed by the community. It didn't need any funding. It didn't need a system to step in and get involved.
00:36:47
It's not the police standing on every corner that can be cut in a budget. These are neighbors helping neighbors and caring about the kids getting to school. And. And that doesn't need a grant and it doesn't need a RFP or any of those sort of things. Yeah, I mean, I think it speaks to something that we feel pretty strongly about that usually a larger issue, a larger pain point is indicative of something that we don't really truly understand.
00:37:11
And we've got to dig into layers of a problem before we really get to. Here's the true problem that we're addressing that ultimately addresses the larger thing. And just to get to circle back to a point I made earlier about the way that we think about our clients. Right. So if I'm a CAAP worker and a call comes into the Miller Street Apartments, to use a generic term, and I go, oh, crap, not that place again.
00:37:37
Right. I'm never asking the parents, why don't you send your children to school? I'm never taking the time to listen and to co create an answer. Right. So it really starts way at the beginning with the way that we think about our communities and the people that we serve and the people we live next to.
00:37:55
Because there's no way that 50% of any school is. Is full of folks who don't care about their kids going to school. Well, I think it speaks to what you've already talked about when you talked about in the very beginning, sort of touched on this idea of like implicit and explicit bias. Right. Like we assume.
00:38:10
We assume a lot of things about a lot of things. And I want my audience to hear me say this right now. Right. Like when I say the word bias, immediately people start to react because it's like you're telling me that I'm part of the problem. It's not what I'm saying.
00:38:24
What I'm saying is we just have to. What assumptions are we making? And whether we like it or not, everybody makes assumptions. And you have. My soapbox is usually in this space is you've got to ask yourself when you're making the assumption in order to change that pattern of behavior, in order to be able to do.
00:38:45
I think sometimes. Right. Like naturally, what you're talking about, Michael. And that's really important for everybody. No, go ahead, Kelly.
00:38:54
No, I was going to add to. I think when we think about appreciative inquiry and conversations worth having it's the generative question does not roll off of anybody's tongue. It's getting a little bit easier because appreciative inquiry, as we think about it, AI, but the people focused AI, you know, is now there's a whole other apparition, you know, artificial intelligence. And it's odd to me that there's generative generativity in artificial intelligence. But first there was generativity in appreciative inquiry.
00:39:25
And I think it is the nature of that question as opposed to an evaluative question, right. Which has more of a yes, no, right or wrong response to it. And Michael, I'll use your example, you know, taking talking to a parent and just saying, ideally, if your child was going to school every day, what might, what might make that possible? Right? So that little word might even just throwing it in there and giving them time to reflect and respond.
00:39:58
And you'll hear a lot in that response, especially if you ask, oh, tell me more and you know, what might you like to see? You know, some add on questions. You will find so much more. I kind of think of it, I am not an artist, but I know that like with the careful use of white space, right. What is not in the picture is sometimes almost as important as what is.
00:40:17
And so when you let people just share with you, you will pick up on things when you're listening. And I know people in community action do a fabulous job of listening and you listen to understand and then you will hear those little things that you can pull out those little nuggets of information that they might not have volunteered because they'd be responding to a different type of a question. And so it might not ever come up. And I think that's one of the strengths of generative questions which really does help to make that invisible, visible, helps to create shared understanding. It helps to generate new knowledge and inspire possibilities.
00:40:57
And I the walkable school bus, Michael, that may stay with me for the rest of my life because that is just one of those great possibility focused initiatives that didn't come from asking how do we fix this? Right. It's what would make this successful. And that's where you get all of those really great ideas that come up. Do all of them get implemented?
00:41:23
Absolutely not. But many of them do. And it's a great starting point. Takes me back to Einstein. Right.
00:41:29
You know, the thinking that got us into this problem, I'm going to really butcher. This is not the thinking that we need to get us out. Right. So it's, it's just looking at things through an additional lens. I never say to people, take away what you've been doing, but I do encourage them to add this lens, add these practices to their toolkit, because I know from experience that once you start to use them, that's what you want to use.
00:41:57
You see the promise and the potential of the outcomes that happen, and you see conversations transform and you see people say, huh, I have never been asked that before. And now I know when I hear that, I just lean in because I know something good is coming next. And that's where I think some of the magic. But it's not magic, it's science that comes from these. Sorry, I don't want to cut you off.
00:42:23
No, that's okay. So. And we're coming up on time, which is unfortunate because I would love to be able to have a longer conversation about this. So I will just say out loud, we're probably going to ask you back to do a part two of this conversation. But so for simplicity's sake, for people who are listening right now and a part of part one, can you give an example of a generative question?
00:42:42
I don't want to leave people scratching their heads. So just give a real, tangible example of what this is, and it can even be within the framework of what we've already talked about in the example that Michaels provide, provided. Sure. Well, I do think, you know, in that school bus, an example, just asking a parent, ideally. Right.
00:43:02
If your child was. Was going to school more frequently, what would make that possible? What would be happening? Right. Because you don't know.
00:43:10
I think that's a key to generative questions. They're typically questions you don't already have the answer for. Really hard in leadership roles because you're kind of taught to have all the answers or you're told you should have at least most of them. So that's one type of a generative question. I think if this were happening, kind of what I just said, whatever this is, if this were happening, who'd be involved?
00:43:34
Who might we model this work after? Right. Those. Those types of things. Michael, do you have others that you go to?
00:43:43
Because of course, I'm like deer in the headlights. Well, I really like them all day long. I really liked how you said, it's not a question we know the answer to. I often tell folks, when you were younger, your parents would say to you, when you were leaving home, you know, what happens if you miss curfew tonight? Right.
00:44:01
And that's not a generative question. Like, they know the answer. You know, the answer. So with generativity, we want to be open ended. We want to ask questions that we're really looking to inspire growth both for the asker and the askee, right?
00:44:17
And so those, those thought provoking, open ended, inspiring questions very much like, you know, what does safety look like for your child on the way to school? How, how could you feel safe knowing that your child was walking to school in your community? Right? Because I don't know the answer that a parent's going to bring to that. And what I really want is I really want to take that information and I want to apply it in a way that can help move us toward that desired future.
00:44:48
And of course, in this case, the desired future was every child has a safe way of getting to school and is attending school when they're not sick or for some other reason shouldn't attend. But I really think that I don't know what the answer is. Is the start to what a generative question is. So what do you do in the situation then? That.
00:45:09
So let's put ourselves in this situation. And this is a question for either one of you, unscripted. You know, when you're in a situation where you're with an organization or with organizational leadership and you ask the generative question, you know, and there's silence.
00:45:27
That'S good because you want them to be able to reflect. And it is typically what a generative question will do. It will give people time to just pause and reflect on that. I think too, there's a lot of setting up of that question. And so an example that I can share with you is like, you really want to help people by painting a vivid picture for them of the scenario before they respond.
00:45:55
And I had worked with an organization, small organization, small team, but I knew they were all people who challenged themselves, right? They weren't competitive with one another, but they challenged themselves. So as a backdrop to this, I said, this is your podium moment. They were coming up on the third year of a strategic plan, wanted some fresh ideas. This is your podium moment.
00:46:17
You're standing up on the podium, so you have to set the stage for that. And all of the things that you want to accomplish have been accomplished. What has gone into making that successful? What did you hope would happen, that happened? What didn't you dare to hope happened, that happened.
00:46:36
The surprise and delight, right? Who was involved in this? How might you have supported one another in making that happen and that imagery, because that's very important in both appreciative inquiry and conversations worth having that imagery of standing on the podium moment and you think of all the preparation that athletes have put into it and the training you call that to mind. And then you start to get responses like, I need to learn more about X. I'm going to spend 10 minutes each week getting better at social media, whatever those things were. Right.
00:47:08
But they're calling to mind what is possible for them based on a framework, based on a situation or a scenario that they're most familiar with that really inspires them. So it's very relevant or customized. It's very specific to who you're speaking with. Yeah. Michael, anything you wanted to add there?
00:47:32
I thought I saw you lean in. I just want to make sure to see if there's anything you wanted to add. No, I think, I think Kelly did a great job. Okay, so we have. I'm sorry to end this conversation because there's a lot more questions that you're prompting that I want to make sure to ask that we're just not going to have time for today.
00:47:49
So I want to make sure to just ask the question. If folks want to learn more, get involved with you specifically, anything you want to call out in terms of how people can get connected with you, websites to go to, email addresses, anything you want to call out. Do you want to go first, Michael? Sure. Folks can reach me at Michael Mrase Edu and they can look up the Institute for Just Outcomes through Conversation using Google and take a look at our mission, vision and values and those sorts of things.
00:48:25
And I think that'll probably do it. Absolutely. And Kelly, again, questions directly for me. Kellyonversationsworth having today. And if someone wants to learn more about those resources for conversations, they can go to that website if they want to learn more about appreciative inquiry and decide whether or not it's something they want to do on their own or would they want a trained facilitator?
00:48:48
Because that sometimes can be a much larger undertaking. I would recommend the Cooper Rider center for Appreciative Inquiry at Champlain College. I don't have the URL or the center for Appreciation, which again, like Michael said, you could Google either of those. And both organizations have great resources for full scale appreciative inquiry, for everyday appreciative inquiry conversations worth having. So I would love to dig into this again more if you're.
00:49:14
If you're both willing to have a follow up episode and talk a little bit more about some of the challenges and advice specifically around adopting some of this framework. We'd love to kind of get into That a little bit more. I want to give a shout out to two of our agencies who I think have really encapsulated this in some tangible ways that I think we've mentioned in other episodes, Tri County Community Action, where literally during their strategic planning process, you know, some years ago, they literally walked beside a client and a participant in some of their programs to understand some of the daily challenges and what it's like, right, to work through what it's like to get to work when you have no form of transportation and there are no pathways to get to work. So literally, they're walking with a client down a highway. Right.
00:49:57
To get to work and talking through what those challenges look like. And then I'll also give a shout out to bcoc, Bucks County Opportunity Council, who through the intake process for a client, they're asking the questions like, what are your dreams? And from a client perspective, a participant perspective, that opens up a hard conversation to have for somebody who's never really allowed themselves to dream. But it really creates a moment of true, again, celebration for when that person does achieve that dream and really, I think, help the person think about what really matters in this moment, about what that organization is trying to help that person achieve. And so those are the two examples that really resonate with me in this discussion today.
00:50:40
And so I just want to make sure to say thank you both for the work that you're doing. I think you both have given some really amazing examples. And again, I know having worked with you, Kelly, in our strategic planning process and working with our agencies, just the great work that you're doing on a daily basis. Thank you. As are you.
00:50:57
You have a wonderful team, fantastic leadership, doing such important work. Every time I interact with anyone from Community Action, I am so grateful for their sense of service, their resourcefulness, their bias towards action. Right. Look at that in the positive. Right.
00:51:14
Because that this is what our communities need and I'm so thankful that they're there. Thank you for that. I appreciate it.
Thank you to our listeners for taking the moment to talk through some of this and look forward to having you both back, if you're willing and able. Absolutely.
If you have any Community Action questions you’d like Beck or one of our local experts to answer in a future episode, please email your questions about Community Action to info@thecaap.org — subject line: Thinking CAAP.