Sharing the Mic: How Listening Can Change Systems
In this powerful episode, co-hosts Beck Moore and Heather Holloway sit down with Vanessa Philbert and Kristy Aurand from Community Action Partnership of Lancaster to explore how language shapes access, dignity, and inclusion. From developing an intentional lexicon to navigating real-world communication challenges, Vanessa and Kristy share how their organization is putting language justice into practice, one word at a time.
Together, they unpack what it means to retire outdated terms, center community voice, and embrace curiosity around identity. Whether you're leading a nonprofit, writing a grant, or simply trying to be more thoughtful with your words, this conversation offers insight, inspiration, and tangible tools for building a more equitable future.
Discover more about Community Action Partnership of Lancaster
Website: https://caplanc.org/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CAPLancasterCounty/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cap_lanc
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/caplanc/
Thinking CAAP Episode 24 Highlights
[00:00] Introduction to Language Justice with Lancaster Community Action
Beck Moore and Heather Holloway introduce guests Vanessa Philbert and Kristy Aurand from Lancaster Community Action Partnership.
They set the stage for a discussion on language justice and its importance in supporting economic mobility and community empowerment in Lancaster County.
[04:10] Defining Language Justice and Its Role in Equity
Vanessa Philbert and Kristy Aurand explain language justice as ensuring everyone can communicate in their preferred language.
They emphasize its role in breaking down barriers, promoting social and racial justice, and creating inclusive, respectful environments that support equity and accessibility.
[06:00] The Power of Language in Community Engagement
The hosts highlight how language shapes inclusion and feelings of belonging.
The conversation explores how thoughtful language choices in communications and marketing foster accessibility and help community members feel ready and welcomed to access services.
[08:00] Lancaster County’s Diversity and Language Challenges
The guests discuss Lancaster County’s unexpectedly diverse population and the implications for language justice.
They underline the importance of using inclusive, positive language and avoiding clichés to create a supportive atmosphere that honors participants' dignity.
[10:00] Developing an Organizational Language Lexicon with Wakeman Agency
Vanessa Philbert details the process of partnering with the Wakeman Agency to create a language lexicon.
Motivated by rethinking terms like “empowering,” Lancaster CAAP engaged staff, board, and stakeholders in a year-long process to adopt language reflecting empowerment of all people authentically.
[14:07] Understanding Organizational Culture Through Language Justice
Vanessa Philbert discusses how language justice initiatives reveal deeper insights into organizational culture.
She emphasizes the importance of intentional language use to improve respect, dignity, and inclusion for people served by community action organizations.
[16:04] Building Organizational Readiness and Mindset for Language Justice
Vanessa shares how prior organizational learning with the Prosperity Agenda prepared the team to embrace language justice by fostering self-awareness, bias recognition, and shared language development.
She underscores the need for vision and capacity to create meaningful cultural change.
[19:21] Navigating Terminology for People Served: Clients, Participants, and Neighbors
Kristy Aurand highlights the varied terms used to describe those served across programs.
She stresses avoiding a one-size-fits-all approach, advocating instead for context-driven language that promotes dignity and collaboration within diverse organizational settings.
[24:00] Retiring Harmful or Overused Terms Like “Stakeholder” for More Inclusive Language
The team explores retiring terms like “stakeholder” due to their colonial origins.
They encourage specificity such as “community partner” or “interested party” to foster more precise and respectful communication aligned with equity values.
[25:30] The Importance of Cultural Nuance in Identity Language
The conversation delves into the complexities of racial and ethnic identifiers like BIPOC, Black, African American, Latino, Latina, and Latine.
They emphasize curiosity, personal preference, and cultural context to honor individual identities.
[28:13] Embracing Curiosity to Bridge Generational Perspectives on Identity
Vanessa Philbert and Kristy Aurand discuss navigating the tension between the terms "African American" and "Black" through curiosity.
They highlight how different generations connect to identity and community history, ultimately finding a way to honor both terms in describing the Crispus Attucks Community Center.
[31:11] Challenging Identity Boxes and Encouraging Human-Centered Respect
The conversation explores how societal pressures to fit into identity “boxes” complicate understanding and dialogue.
Kristy Aurand emphasizes treating everyone with kindness and respect, focusing on shared humanity amidst complex identity discussions.
[33:18] Developing an Accessible DEI Lexicon for Community Engagement
The team reflects on creating a DEI lexicon that balances precision with accessibility.
They discuss using tools like ChatGPT to simplify language and highlight the ongoing effort to make diversity and inclusion concepts understandable and relevant for all community members.
[36:25] Overcoming Resistance and Fostering a Culture of Learning in DEI Work
Kristy Aurand shares challenges faced when introducing DEI initiatives, including skepticism and discomfort.
She underlines the importance of adopting both teacher and learner mindsets, encouraging open dialogue and flexibility for organizational growth.
[40:29] Respect and Healthy Discourse as Foundations for Inclusive Workspaces
Vanessa Philbert stresses that while personal beliefs may differ, mutual respect and healthy discourse are essential in collaborative environments.
The discussion ties back to the importance.
[41:09] Understanding Community Needs Through Inclusive Language
Vanessa Philbert and Kristy Aurand discuss the importance of recognizing diverse community needs.
They emphasize using inclusive, thoughtful language that reflects respect and equity.
They highlight ongoing learning and adapting communication to foster inclusion and effectively serve varied populations.
[43:03] Challenges of Using Person-First Language in Communication
The conversation highlights struggles with finding the right terminology.
They discuss balancing person-first language and adjusting expressions like “people living in low income conditions” to minimize harm while maintaining clarity, especially in limited spaces like grant applications.
[46:02] Balancing Authenticity and Practical Communication Constraints
Kristy and Vanessa reflect on the need for flexibility in language use.
They acknowledge real-world constraints like grant character limits, while committing to continuous learning and improvement in communication without abandoning core values or authenticity.
[48:21] Putting Equity Learning into Practice at Lancaster CAP
The team focuses on moving beyond training to applying equity and inclusion principles daily.
They prioritize embedding these values into organizational culture and practice, ensuring meaningful transformation through action, not just education.
[50:06] Creating a Living Glossary to Foster Ongoing Inclusion and Learning
Kristy describes developing a living glossary for inclusive language that evolves with input from the organization.
This initiative supports continuous cultural growth and adaptability.
It exemplifies how process-oriented tools can influence broader organizational culture and equity efforts.
[54:17] Encouragement for Community Service and Impactful Leadership
Beck Moore encourages those in community service roles to stay motivated.
He emphasizes that their words and actions have lasting historical significance and immediate impact on their communities.
[54:41] Recognizing Allyship and Inclusive Leadership
Beck Moore praises Kristy Aurand for her consistent allyship and efforts to ensure inclusivity.
He highlights the importance of standing up for others and inviting diverse voices to the table in various environments.
[55:04] Navigating Complex Projects and Organizational Culture
Beck Moore acknowledges Vanessa Philbert’s courage in addressing challenging questions and managing complex projects.
He notes how these efforts help shape organizational culture and underscore core values.
[55:48] Visionary Work Shaping the Future of Community Action
Heather Holloway commends Vanessa and Kristy for their critical work in community action.
She describes their efforts as a master class in future possibilities and leadership that is vital for the sector’s evolution.
[56:42] Closing Remarks and Community Engagement Invitation
Beck Moore and guests thank listeners.
They encourage subscribing and invite questions related to community action for future episodes.
The remarks reinforce the podcast’s role as a supportive platform for community-focused discussions.
Episode 24 Transcript
00:00:00
What's up, everybody? Welcome to the Thinking CAAP. I'm Beck Moore, CEO of Community Action Association of Pennsylvania. With me today, my fearless co host, Heather Holloway, Holloway Media Services. What's up, Heather?
00:00:13
Beck, you took the right out of my mouth. I know. Planned all week. You knew it. You saw a little light bulb go.
00:00:20
And then, I mean, she's preparing for the microphone. If you don't believe telepathy is a thing, it's a thing. It happened real time. Hey, look, I'm, I'm. There's no better place to be right now than on the Thinking CAAP podcast.
00:00:31
Thank you so much, Beck. Absolutely happy to be here. Also with us today are two amazing guests, Vanessa Philbert and Kristy Aurand. I'll let them both introduce themselves, tell us a little bit about them, their backgrounds, what they do with Lancaster Community Action Programs, one of our amazing partner member agencies serving Lancaster County. So, Vanessa, I'm going to start with you.
00:00:51
Share a little bit about your background, who you are, what you do, what you care about. Oh, that feels like a loaded question these days. So my name is Vanessa Philbert. I'm CEO of our local Community Action Partnership in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. What do I do every day?
00:01:06
That's a good question. These days, it's a lot of trying to keep things moving along, really. Our work at Community Action, like many of you know who are listening, is to create an environment where our neighbors can thrive. And we do that through different models, modalities, services, convening around economic mobility efforts. A little bit about me.
00:01:27
Born and raised, Brooklyn, New York. Don't be mad about that, Beck. He was like, I was born in Kentucky. Don't be mad about that. Okay, that's fair.
00:01:38
I've been here in Lancaster for over 20 years. Glad to be a part of the community and have been here at CAP almost nine years now. So glad to be part of the CAP team. Thank you very much. And just for the record, I will say to everyone, including you, Heather, Vanessa is technically one of my bosses because she is on the CAP board as our vice chair of our board.
00:01:56
So just will, you know, be on my best behavior. Maybe. We'll see. We'll add this to his evaluation and it'll be great. That's true.
00:02:04
And then Kristy Aurand, who's also joining us, joining us from Lancaster CAP, which we typically say. Heather, I don't know if I've said this to you. We are CAAP, and this is Lancaster CAP. Kristy, I think coined that phrase, though. So, Kristy, tell us a little bit about yourself.
00:02:18
Oh, yeah, so I'm Kristy Aurand. I'm the Chief Development Officer at Community Action Partnership of Lancaster. So I'm responsible for fundraising, marketing, communications, public public relations, and media relations. Really, anything that would earn us a dollar or earn us a friend kind of falls under my purview. And I've been with CAP just a little over eight years and really value the work of the org and the direction we're heading.
00:02:48
Awesome. Well, thank you both for spending time with us and talking a little bit about a project that you embarked on two years ago. Is that right? A year ago. When did this work start around Language justice, which is what we're here to talk about?
00:03:01
Yeah, about a year and a half ago. So you kind of. Let's split the difference between where you were at. Awesome. Yeah.
00:03:07
Well, so I think let's kind of jump right into this. And I. And you know, we've had. I know that the three of us. Heather, you haven't been included in all those conversations in the past, but I know we've had a lot of conversations about sort of the evolution of what economic mobility looks like.
00:03:24
Right. How we talk about the work of our organizations and part of what's really, you know, for our audience. I think for those of you who are within Community Action, you. You know this already. But for those of you who don't, if you've been listening along, hopefully you started to remember this.
00:03:37
But the work of Community Action is really, you know, helping people, changing lives. That's sort of our. Our motto and our tagline. But how each agency change does that, how they approach, you know, local community, is very different. But I think with.
00:03:50
With you, Vanessa, and in Lancaster, you know, you all have taken really intentional approaches around, you know, things like words that you are using this idea of language justice. And so really excited to kind of dig into this topic with you all. So I want to start just. Let's kind of create a grounding moment here right around this idea. What.
00:04:10
Let's get to the basics, right? What is language justice? Why is it important? So question for either one of you. You tell me who wants to answer it.
00:04:18
But let's just talk about. Really, what does that mean? Yeah, I can. I'll let Kristy do the official definition.
00:04:26
Official definition probably talks about a framework for ensuring that everyone has a right to communicate and to be understood in their preferred language or in the preferred language with which we speak. A lot of times I think language justice can refer to some simply translation, which is obviously something that's super important, especially across the participants that we serve with community action. And I think as we think about it, language can really create a barrier and can be pretty oppressive. So here at Lancaster CAP, we look at language and language justice specifically as really a tool for social and racial justice, especially as we think about things like person first language, or eliminating bias from either terms or phrases or whatever it might be. So that's sort of like general, broad definition as it's understood and then kind of like a little more focused on like what we're thinking about here internally.
00:05:43
So what I think about what that means tactically. Yeah. Heather, were you going to bring this up? Go ahead. I'll get.
00:05:50
I'll. I'll jump in. I'm so excited about this. I'll jump in. So when I think about this tactically then, right.
00:05:55
I think about it from the context of if I am trying to figure out where I could best be served or I'm trying to reach out to somebody and I go to someone's website, right. And I see words that immediately make me feel othered or different or minimized or looks like, you know, they're even thinking about like the pictures that people use on websites or, you know, how to market out services. And I feel like this is a place I don't belong. To me, that is a barrier to then the equity that ultimately community action is trying to create. Fair.
00:06:31
Yeah. I think it's also. It's like when I work through the summary of it, it's like it creates access, it creates inclusion. I think it doesn't just. I think it creates an environment of respect.
00:06:47
Ultimately it helps us to make sure that we're creating a space where equity and justice feel like it's happening in real time with people. But it does take a lot of intentionality because there's a way that we can start with something what feels maybe basic, like translation services, and then consider how do we stretch ourselves to do more, to really close the gap for folks and to make sure that they feel welcome and, I don't know, ready. You know, when you're working through the things that we offer people, you're trying to navigate lots of stuff in the world and, you know, it's challenging to consider one more barrier to just understanding information, to getting what you need. So just having feeling like, I'm ready, I can do this thing, I think helps our participants get what they need. Yeah, absolutely.
00:07:39
And again, you know, go back to kind of the why. And then, Heather, I'll be quiet so you can make sure to make your point. What I don't think a lot of people understand about Lancaster county is it's actually one of the most diverse populations in the entire state. And when I think about Lancaster county, you know, until I have, having had worked there at some point in, you know, my career, nonprofit for even a short period of time, I can, I know that now. But before, when I think about Lancaster county, you know, the perspective is just, it may not be that.
00:08:07
So interesting fun fact for folks to kind of look up and dig into a little bit about what that really means. Heather, go ahead. I want to be quiet for a minute. No, no, no, no. It's wonderful.
00:08:15
I love this. I did not know that this is the subject we were getting into today. Language, for me and in my agency carries so much weight. It has so much power. It holds, you know, you can rise up or you can crash down.
00:08:32
Right. And so even in my agency, we take language so seriously. And I teach this when I, when I speak to social workers that, you know, this, this killing and crushing and blowing up the chat, you know, even words like that, you know, we must be mindful because it carries an energy so beyond language and translation. It's. And it's like you said, you know, getting away from these cliches and being more inviting and positive with our language.
00:09:05
Oh, I love it. I love it. You guys are doing this. Thank you for being leaders in this. It's one of the things, Heather, ever since, you know, we had a conversation a while ago and we were talking about, about this and you had mentioned about.
00:09:16
Right. Like bullet pointed emails and not saying bullet pointed emails. And ever since you said that, I'm sorry, cognizant of saying that phrase and trying to avoid it, but it's just some of these words and phrases. And we're going to talk about this. Right.
00:09:29
It's just so built into our vernacular that. Sure. We have to retrain our brains. Absolutely. And it is.
00:09:35
You do. It's a choice. You have to make an active choice. So I love that you're taking action and providing that so that it feels accessible and open. And you guys are magnetic.
00:09:47
It's awesome. So want to kind of unbox a little bit about the process if you can walk us through. So in 2024, I think you all started partnering with the Wakeman agency to develop this organizational sort of vocabulary, lexicon, however you want to describe it. Can you walk us through a little bit about what the process looked like? And ultimately we've talked a little bit about the why, but anything in particular that you haven't shared that motivated really the decision.
00:10:14
Yeah, I mean, it was really interesting because we had had a discussion actually at our board meeting one month, focused on the word empowering. And it came from our board member who is a professor at a local university. And so her understanding of the term and conversations that were happening, like at the university were very academic based, right? Like super based in academia. And so almost to the.
00:10:42
Almost so far as to be like, well, I don't know how that really relates to us. And yet we were sitting there with like our tagline, our organizational tagline being empowering Lancaster County Families. And so I think it really gave us pause to think, like, we should probably like, think about this a little further. Right? And so we kind of went back as a leadership team and had some conversations here and there.
00:11:04
And I think, you know, what we. What we really deduced from that is like, right when you think about the word empower, there is a power dynamic that is baked in to the word empower. Whereas, like, with empowering Lancaster County Families, it was us doing the empowering of the families. And actually we can get to the word families in a little bit because that's also sometimes problematic. But with empowering, you know, it really suggests like, we are in power and the folks who are coming to us are going to somehow get this power from us.
00:11:41
Excuse me, but what we know. I'm like getting too excited about it. But what we know is, you know, everyone who walks through our doors is already has everything that they need within themselves. All of the qualities, all of the, you know, resources that they, like, intrinsic, that they need. There's just, you know, a reason, whatever the reason is that they're coming to us for some extra resource.
00:12:09
And so it's not like we're not doing the empowering. They're already empowered. So it was just a very interesting series of conversations on like, okay, so what does that mean? So fast forward. I mean, it was probably ad nauseam conversations, but we switched to our tagline, which feels like a very small thing, but is actually pretty monumental.
00:12:33
We switched it to people, period, Empowered, period. And really the point behind that is we want everyone to be empowered. Whether that's families coming through the doors, whether that's our staff, whether that's our partners, whether that's our board, but everyone who touches Community Action Partnership of Lancaster county, we want them to be empowered. And we are an organization that is. Is just based in the fact that people are empowered already.
00:13:06
So. So that was kind of like light bulb of the motivation behind, like deciding to think about language, you know, the process itself. We had kind of come to learn about the Wakeman Agency at a fundraising conference and kind of learned about this lexicon project that they had trademarked and, you know, sounded really interesting and decided to make the investment in it. But I mean, over the course of a year's time, they did a whole intake meeting to go over our goals and just set expectations. They did interviews with our staff and our board.
00:13:46
They did focus groups. They did an all staff survey. They reviewed almost 30 documents from our organization, including our website. We talked about this project at our all staff meeting. So it was a lengthy engagement and a lot, a lot of work on both sides.
00:14:07
But we really came out of the process with not just understanding of words and language, but also a lot about organizational culture and how the culture can be improved, not just through language, but really just through general findings that they came out with staff surveys.
00:14:32
And I think for anybody who's listening and is like, okay, this seems like it's way too high level or it's over my head or someone's like, you know, like, I still don't get it. I think here's the thing that I want you to remember and I want you to stick with us to this conversation because I, I can appreciate, you know, I know some people who are probably listening are probably skeptics to why this really matters, but I think it may not matter to you, but it matters to somebody. Right? And so I think you need to consider that again, right, this, this to you, doesn't necessarily matter for whatever reason, but it's going to matter for somebody that's walking through your doors. And so it's part of, again, right, like at our core, within community action, us thinking about the impact that we are making on people in the really big ways, in the really small ways, and in the ways in between that we don't even understand sometimes.
00:15:16
Well, and I think language is one of those things where sometimes it doesn't matter until it really, really matters. Yes, yes. And I think that, you know, like you had said earlier, Beck, if folks are not coming to us because they feel they are not seen or represented or, you know, otherwise or if, as in conversation, we're causing harm, you know, those are like, especially with community action, like we're based in, you know, creating respect and dignity and, you know, walking with folks. And so I think, you know, again, it's like, it doesn't have to be, I think it doesn't have to be a process like this one it can maybe just be being a little more thoughtful. It can be having curious conversations.
00:16:04
So I think there's a lot of different, like, entry points. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I would say, you know, I think what was helpful too is that the year, probably two years prior to that, we went through another kind of learning as a whole organization. And it started with our mindset. If I was giving any advice to folks about how do you create readiness to an organization to explore something like a project around language?
00:16:31
It starts with how we think about ourselves. It starts with how we think about the folks that we are in service to. It starts with grappling with our own bias and how those things show up, which often show up in the way that we describe, talk about, deal with, decompress about the work. We spent probably two years working through this mindset framework with an organization called the Prosperity Agenda. And they were great.
00:17:04
But it was very similar in terms of let's engage with your core, your whole organization, surveys, learning, focus groups. Then let's take them on a journey of learning, then help them to start to self identify. Where are the spaces in which these things are bubbling up for me? And where can we find common language, shared language, to talk about the work, the participants, the challenges, the barriers, the opportunities, the gifts that people bring when they show up at CAP. So when we started to move into the language justice piece, we already had some muscle memory from that learning experience.
00:17:43
I would say as an organizational leadership perspective, these are the kinds of things that do not feel important in terms of the day to day work, but they are foundational to the quality of work that we will produce. So you have to have the vision to say like, wow, there are a hundred other things that we need to do. There are things that we're required to do. There's all the things that, especially when you are working through contracts and grants and you feel that pressure. We made a really intentional effort to say we're going to build time and capacity to create space for learning.
00:18:20
Then it was easier, I think, to introduce something like language justice because there was that muscle memory coming along. And for me, it felt like then we're scaling skills and competency as a team in an organization. I want to dig into a little bit more about how you engaged some of the team. I know, Kristy, you reflected on this a little bit and I'm going to use the word stakeholder, but I know that this is a good example of a word that, you know, we're going to talk about. I'm going to note that out loud.
00:18:50
And that will help me to remember to not use that word anymore, to be clear. But anything in particular in engaging the team and your, you know, the various folks that you work with in community, that was really the most surprising to you or the most impactful to you when you were going through this process? Anything in particular? Really, you're just like, this was my aha Moment. And I think for me, just some of the conversations, especially when we did this at our all staff meeting and kicked this off to our whole.
00:19:21
To our 300 staff who work here, we did an exercise talking through a couple terms for what do we call the folks who come to CAP? So, because there are people in the agency who call them clients, there are people who call them customers, participants, neighbors. You know, there's just all of these different terms. And so I think it was like. And then we had a share out of, like, what terms do you use?
00:19:52
What terms do you like? And it was really interesting because I think in that moment I realized, like, this is a very. It's a diverse organization, even in. Right. What.
00:20:05
What folks are called. Because an attorney at our domestic violence legal clinic is going to call the person that they're working with, a client. Because across the legal sphere, that's what they're called. She's not going to walk into court and be like, this is my neighbor. She's going to say, this is my client.
00:20:25
The folks working in our utility program, you know, the people coming to them are customers of UGI or ppl and they're accessing a service, so that's who they are. So I think in that moment I really realized, like, what we're not going to do is be the language police, because we can't do that. And what we're not going to do is say, one size fits all across the org. What we can do is like, good, better, best, right? So maybe, like, if.
00:20:57
If, like, if it's not a legal situation, like, probably client isn't the word we want to lean into. Probably we want to move to something like participant that feels a little more like both sides. You know, the. The person at CAP and the folk. The people coming are, you know, working together as, you know, collaborators or, you know, for Crispus Attucks Community Center.
00:21:21
It's a neighborhood center. Neighbor. That's a great one. You know, they're not. I don't know that client is the best, you know, word there.
00:21:27
But I think that it's. It's offering the thought process behind some of this. And like, Vanessa had said the intentionality of giving it thought and being able to address like, yeah, some of we, we do, you know, carry power in different ways. And so how can we, you know, create, create scenarios that are just more, more dignified for, for everyone. For everyone, you know, in the community.
00:21:59
Yeah, absolutely. So I want to, yeah, just a phenomenal work. I'm just sitting here stunned. I'm so sorry. Like, jaw drop.
00:22:07
I'm fangirling over here back fangirling. Heather's watching the ping pong match right now. I'm just so curious about what's going to be said next. I want to. So let's, I want to kind of dig into this world, this word stakeholder a little bit and talk about other language.
00:22:21
You know, any suggestions in particular or words or phrases that you've really specifically. I know you said you're not going to be the language police and I appreciate that because, you know, I think that for some folks, right, Like, I think there's sometimes these expectations when we, when we talk about work like this. Like we talk about diversity and equity and inclusion work which we're not even supposed to talk about anymore, you know, and want to be clear, you know, the views of this podcast are the views of the individual people, not the views of the organization. And in my instance, right, in your all's instance@lancaster CAP, really totally different out perspective. But I'm going to say that out loud.
00:22:56
It's, you know, we're not talking about any one particular grant source and give that little bit of caveat. But a lot of times when we talk about this type of work, really immediately somebody hears the word bias and they're like, oh, I'm out. I'm not going to do this because immediately it makes me angry, it makes me annoyed. And so appreciate this perspective of not being the language police because I think when we tell people not to do things, it's sort of just fight or flight mode, right? We're like, nope, I'm going to do it anyway.
00:23:23
So I appreciate that, but I want to talk a little bit more about these words specifically. Right. That you've said, you know, we're going to agree this is our cultural norm as an organization. We're no longer need to use this. Have you developed any of those words specifically who said those?
00:23:38
Any suggestions about words not to use? Yes. And the, and the glossary heading on these will not even necessarily be words not to use, but will be words suggested for retirement. Right. So you know that.
00:23:52
Because that just feels more if like everyone, like you're gonna, you're gonna make mistakes or you're gonna, you know, like, it's okay. But, you know, these are ones that we would write, suggest that we retire. So stakeholders, a great example. I mean, you think about. I mean, you know, we probably hear this word at least, you know, multiple times a day.
00:24:13
It's ingrained. It's ingrained in my brain. I can't. I just think about it. I say it all the time, so I need to not use it as.
00:24:20
You think about it. You know, that word originates in a colonial practice of putting a stake in the ground and saying, this is mine. Right. Oftentimes not in a way that includes whose ever land it was beforehand. So just a good thing, A good thing to think about.
00:24:37
So, you know, how can we. Then you get, you know, you start thinking about, okay, so what. What is the word? Or what is. I think, you know, there's a lot to be said for like, interested.
00:24:47
You know, maybe it's an interested party, maybe it's a community partner, maybe it's a. You know, maybe it's just. Maybe you actually have to uncouple, like that group of stakeholders to. We're specifically talking about donors, board members. You know, I think what we kind of, kind of heard throughout this whole process is the more specific you can be, the better.
00:25:13
Right. So we get into like a word like bipoc that they suggested for retirement. We say that all the time, but they were saying sometimes that creates like a group of folks when we really mean to say black or we really mean to say Latino or, you know, so it's like kind of getting away from, like, grouping people because it's easy and really, like, being more specific in saying what we mean. Yeah, yeah. I've sat through a lot of discussions about the phraseology that we use, particularly in EEOC classifications.
00:25:50
We talk about race when we talk about ethnicity, and a lot of times those phrases even are used synonymously, but they're not the same. And that could be a whole separate podcast that we talk about that topic. But I think for folks who are listening, I think some people, you'll hear them use the word black, and then other folks will use the word African American. And the reality is that for any given person, one of those phrases. Right.
00:26:12
May be offensive to them individually. And it's. It's. I feel like it's no different than anything else. You know, we've just, We've got to stop and ask ourselves for individuals, what really matters to them as people.
00:26:25
And we have sometimes we just. It's. Sometimes we just ask, right? Like, we just. We just go out on a limb and we ask the question.
00:26:31
Well, that's. I mean, I think that's the bigger learning here, is that there's lots of debate. And I think the way to avoid the debate is to be curious and ask what your preference is. Right. You know, I try to think about the words that I use as a human being.
00:26:49
And we had a debate about Latino, Latina, Latine. And you know, there are different people in the room who are of Latin descent who respond to that very differently. And there's so much sub context as it relates to culture in the Latino community. So it's like if you are Puerto Rican versus Dominican, if you're from Spain, if you are from South America, America, how you fit into that space and what you want to be identified with is very different. There's a really large.
00:27:22
Not the right word. There's a powerful culture, especially in the Puerto Rican culture. So there's this word in Spanish, it's said, and that word means pride. But it is one of those words that in the Puerto Rican culture has like quadruple, extra oomph to it. And when you think about a Puerto Rican and a Puerto Rican that's from New York versus a Puerto Rican that's from the island, there are some things that are differentiators there.
00:27:55
But being Puerto Rican by itself creates that sense of. That is like, you can't tell me nothing about nothing. These are my people, right? And they would much rather say I'm boricua versus I'm like, I'm Latino. That's not what's going to happen in Puerto Rican culture.
00:28:13
So it's interesting that we've got to just ask and be curious. I think the challenge with that is, is that, you know, no one wants to get it wrong. No one wants to be in a debate, right? Well, maybe some people do not. I don't usually want to debate people.
00:28:29
I think it's about our heart space and our intention with our curiosity. Because am I being curious to debate with you and tell you how you're wrong about this, or am I being curious because I actually want a different perspective and I'm trying to broaden my own understanding. We had an interesting conversation with an advisory group that's part of our Crispus Attucks Community center, which was a historically black community center. It was basically a refuge for the black community here. It's almost 100 years old in Lancaster County.
00:29:01
It's right in the southeast part of the city. It has been kind of a cornerstone institution in the southeast, but it was also a place where, during the time of segregation, the things that black people needed came out of the center. Clinic, after school program, cheerleading, meals. Anything that that community needed, they had to find refuge in a different place to receive it. And the center was that.
00:29:28
So as we were talking to kind of two different generations of people who are really care about the center deeply, the older generation of folks were saying, no, it's African American. And the younger generation was saying, it's black. And there was a lot more willingness to explore black as a diaspora, where the folks who are a little older, like, no, it's African American. And there's an African American experience here that no one. They're not willing to negotiate that because the lived experience of the.
00:30:00
Of African people that were kidnapped and brought to this country, and then their ancestors and how they experienced America, what they got to was a place of saying, we are African American. And that feels whole for them. And then a younger generation is like, it's cool. We're black, whether you're from Haiti or you're from South Carolina. And it was just a different dialogue, but it was really interesting, and we ended up working it out that we could use both terms in the way that we talk about the work.
00:30:32
So when we talk about the history of Crispus Attuck, we talk about it through the lens of the African American experience. And then as we talk about the future of the center, we talk about the black experience. So we were able to hold space for both of them, but we had to show up with a lot of curiosity, be like, what's this tension about these words? Because it was very clear, and they were very quick to be like, not that word for me. Not that word for me.
00:30:57
Yeah, it's one of the. It's. So this is a. I think this is something that is always. This discussion is something that always intrigues me to kind of dig into, because I think in American culture, we sort of have this requirement almost, right? Well, we do have a requirement.
00:31:11
We have to check a box. And which box we check is so ingrained in our brains. And so when we think about who we are, what makes up our identities, right? How we see each other, how we see our community, quote, unquote, right? Like, it's becomes very much like, you only fit in this box, and you only fit in this box.
00:31:27
You don't fit in this box, Even though everybody fits in lots of boxes. And ultimately, anybody who was at our summit last year, we Had Clint Smith come and speak. And he has this great book called how the Word Has Passed. If you haven't read it, read it. You need a copy, and you're a CAAP member.
00:31:43
Let me know. I got some extra copies sent in my office. But he talks about so much of how we see the world, so much of how we see other people is really ingrained in how we were brought up. And to unbox, that is complicated. And it makes people uncomfortable.
00:31:57
To your point earlier, Vanessa. Right. And it's hard to have discussion about because people immediately feel. It just. It feels like you're poking at my insides.
00:32:10
Right. And it bothers people. But I think the word that you use, right, about curiosity and trying to seek to understand is part of what I try to always speak about. Right. Like, it's ultimately, at the end of the day for me, you know, people just need to be treated as humans.
00:32:26
And understanding how they want to be treated is, at its core. It's not. It's. That's complicated to unbox, but it's not that complicated. Ultimately, everybody deserves to be treated with human decency and respect.
00:32:37
And part of why you did this, right, is to be able to do that. I mean, it's kind of that simple. It's complicated work, but it's kind of that simple in my mind. I don't mean to get all scripture, because I don't know Scripture, but isn't it like, do unto thy neighbor, right, as you'd want done to yourself? That's it.
00:32:57
Kindness and compassion, empathy really isn't that hard. It is a choice. It's a choice when your baby's screaming and the coffee spilled on your shirt and the traffic's jammed and the casework doesn't stop and this and that. I get it. But, boy, I'll tell you what, after doing this for a while, it is going to have such an incredible impact.
00:33:18
How long have you initiated this new concept? So, I mean, we started the engagement like a year and a half ago. So we're actually still in the process of. So what we've done since it's wrapped up, we got a report, right? So the Wakeman Agency put all of this information into a report for us with, like, a suggested glossary of terms and that sort of thing.
00:33:43
So then we went back to, you know, internal folks and said, okay, what is right for us in CAP? You know, CAP in Lancaster? Because not everything fit perfectly. And so kind of had those conversations. We have a DEI task force here at CAP, so we threw by them an executive summary that we developed.
00:34:07
And actually what was so fascinating to come out of that conversation was two things. Number one, the word lexicon is not super accessible. So what is a lexicon? Most people don't. It's like etymology.
00:34:19
If you say etymology, what is an etymology? It's and you know, study of words, how they came to be. Lexicon, not a word that people typically etymology was soybeans. Okay, right, exactly. As a former English teacher, words I all, you know, had to spend a.
00:34:34
Lot of time in class so needing, you know, for that feedback. No, that's great. I mean, through that feedback we were like, okay, so we really need to define lexicon. I mean, listen, the lexicon project is trademarked, so we also need to like, you know, do that. But we can certainly give a definition of what a lexicon is because really it's just a vocabulary of a people.
00:34:53
Right? So this is the vocabulary of CAP is what this is going to be. And you know, the other thing that was interesting is, I mean I put together the executive summary from, you know, the data, the report we got and folks were like, yeah, this language, like throw this through something to see like who this is written for, like grade wise, right? We try to like, you know, write to a certain grade level. And it came back and it was like collegiate.
00:35:16
So I was like, okay, well that's also not super accessible. So I used our friend chat GPT and they made it, you know, they brought it down to like a fifth, sixth grade level and it made it so much more accessible and frankly, just easier to understand, I think. So it's very interesting to think about even a project meant to create more accessibility and language still, you know, it's, it, it still had work that needed to be done to make it accessible. So it's like, you know, never, never rest and never sleep on it because, you know, there's, there's always like, there's always something to reconsider. I think we will be reconsidering, you know, for the rest of time.
00:36:03
I mean, Brene Brown said it best. Clarity is kind. And in marketing, I mean, you have to be clear, not clever, be clear. And you know, every marketing book and every marketer out there worth their weight in gold is going to tell you drop it to that fifth or sixth grade level because that is just the easiest, you know, the best consumable way and tell a lot of stories. But I'm at.
00:36:25
But what I'd love to know is, you know, with change comes growing pains. Did we have anybody was like, what Is this. What is this? Oh, for sure, yes.
00:36:40
You know, I think there were even when probably a few years ago, I remember we hosted an all staff, and we had different tracks of learning, so we did kind of our plenary together as a team. And then we were like, every year we try to come up with a different way that we approach all staff. It's our one time of year that we get all 300 people in the room together, and we try to, you know, hold that touch point. And one year we're like, oh, we're gonna do these learning tracks, and people can register for, like, what they're interested in. And I remember that, you know, it was virtual.
00:37:13
It was during COVID times. We were doing our best, and some folks didn't get the track that they originally had requested. They got bumped into another zoom Room, and there was some hesitation because they were bumped into. I think we were doing one around Language justice with a. With a partner.
00:37:32
Local partner was doing that one. We were doing one with the LGBTQ coalition. And then. I can't remember, the other tracks were. So folks got bumped into that LGBTQ track, and they were kind of like, no, I don't want to be like, that's not what I signed up for.
00:37:46
And I was like, okay, well, you're going to have to rock with it and learn something and be flexible. But I remember getting feedback for folks feeling like that we were doing too much in the DEI space or they didn't appreciate the different kind of learning structures. I talk with people about that of like, hey, it's really hard for me to consider how we can be really impactful in our work if we aren't willing to be learners, right? So there's this work by this gentleman named Dr. Nicholas Hobbs, who was a youth development person, and he had these 12 core principles of learning, and he was all about. His whole philosophy was like, every kid can relearn.
00:38:30
No kid is damaged, broken, bad. We can all relearn. And one of the core principles that he had was that we were all teachers and we're all learners. And I've been working with this team to say, we got to be open to teaching and learning. It doesn't matter what position you're in.
00:38:49
We have to hold the posture of a teacher and a learner. And sometimes we've got to say, oh, I'm the teacher. I bring something to this conversation that can help. And sometimes we gotta be like, oh, I gotta just be open to learning. And it doesn't mean that I'm asking You to be the practitioner about that thing that we're teaching.
00:39:06
But I need you to be part of our team from a place of like, hey, I'm willing to explore, because that's the only way that we evolve as humans if we're willing to learn. So we have definitely had a long history of folks who really are trying to come along but push and pull on it, which is fair and fine for them to do. And it's also up to them to decide if this is like the right place for them. I try to lead from a very centrist place. We try to minimize the politics of things and really keep it to the human, human experience.
00:39:40
But I also recognize that for some people, there are things that just feel like buzzwords that they can't get past or they feel forced in a way. And I will deal with those things on a case by case basis as they come up. I want to be able to have a dialogue with people before they make that decision, you know, to step away from the organization or to be frustrated with us. I want them to engage in a conversation. But we definitely have people who are thinking, being curious about like, why are we doing all this?
00:40:07
Why does it has it do with our work? And that gives me the opportunity to like walk them back and say, this is why I think it's important. And every leader has an opportunity to set their own vision and approach to the work I'm leading now. And this is the, the way that I choose to lead 15 years, someone else might lead in a different way and have different priorities. That's totally okay.
00:40:29
Yeah. Well, I think, I think to this end, you know, it's part of what I talk when I talk about my own experience, you know, speak about fairly often. It's one of the things I say, like I'm not telling you about who I am because I'm trying to change your opinion. You can think whatever you want about the way that I live my life and who I am on the inside. At the end of the day though, if I'm, if I work with you, you better darn well treat me with, with respect.
00:40:50
Right. Like you would anybody else. I don't. You don't have to. We can agree to disagree and have healthy discourse.
00:40:55
That's fine. I also think about it from that perspective. Right. Like again with community action, I'll kind of, you know, bring this back to what, what we do in our day to days. You all far so more than I do because I just get to talk about it most days.
00:41:09
I'm not direct client service, but if our job is to create equity in our communities and understand the needs of our communities, we have to understand the needs of our communities. And that means the needs of the, you know, in totality, the diverse, particularly the diverse nature of your county. Right. That's just, that's the way it is. So the reality is, you know, the communities that you trained about, you've had folks speak about, that's part of your population that you serve.
00:41:38
So you've got to. You've got to have. You've got to ensure that your team understands needs and uses phrases, words. Right. Lexicon, if you will, that creates a spirit of inclusion and what you're trying to accomplish at the end of the day.
00:41:55
Yeah. And I think for us, because we have so many different programs at our local CAP, our customer does look different and requires something different from those touch points. So we provide domestic violence services for victims and survivors of domestic violence in all of Lancaster County. You know, we're the one focused agency on db. And there is a lot of language in that work that, you know, Kristy and I have to be really intentional about learning and understanding because it's not the work that we're doing every day, but we have to be really clear about it.
00:42:27
Because when we are talking to donors or sponsors or we're trying to have the right language in a grant application, we want to make sure that we're attuned to what is appropriate for that space versus how we talk about food insecurity. I grew up in a low income situation. As a kid, my mom was on public assistance and did what she needed to do to support three kids and all those things. I don't often talk about people as poor people. I often will say people living in low income conditions, you know, so I try to like, and I don't get it right all the time.
00:43:03
There's times where like a thing will slip. I'll be like, catch me later on that one. I don't, you know, what's. Another one was like grandfathered. I was like, oh my gosh.
00:43:11
How do you then use. What do you say about that? How. What's the alternative? So sometimes I'll be at a meeting with Kristy.
00:43:17
I'm like, what's the other thing that we're supposed to say now that's not that thing. But you know what I mean when it's like, grab, you know, and she'll give me the words. But it's not easy. And I will tell you, it's not about being Perfect. It's about just committing to the progress of learning.
00:43:32
Listen, every time you swing, you're not going to get a hit, right? I mean, I love baseball. It's what law of averages. You're trying to get the higher average, but you can only do that in school, which is the real world. So, you know, ease and grace as you're going through this.
00:43:47
Yeah, it's funny because, you know, Vanessa, that's a great example of like poor people versus, like either people living with low income or experiencing living conditions or whatever it is. So what you're talking about is like not modifying them by their experience or their circumstance, but rather, you know, putting them first as a human and then this is maybe a circumstance. What, you know, what I think I struggle with is I come from, well, I come from a background as a journalist where I always needed to use fewer words, not more. And now in my current role, even in grant applications, you have 500 characters. Like people experiencing low income conditions is a lot more, has a lot more.
00:44:28
And. But you have chat. We love, we love, we love her. But yeah, so, I mean, we had a whole conversation about that at our, at our leadership level of like, oh, this is a lot of words. It's like, yeah, sometimes it's going to be a lot of words and maybe eventually we can, you know, somehow condense what that is.
00:44:49
But until we know that, like, let's, let's use, let's use more words because the harm, I don't know that there's harm in using more, more words rather than fewer. So I think that idea of just, you know, what, how can we cause the least harm possible is really something to keep at the forefront. Yeah. And I would, I would agree too. Just to consider is that we also are having to make real time decisions.
00:45:17
I think this grant example is one that's smart to consider. Our heart and our commitment could be like we're using all the words all the time and then we get to a grant, we're like, we got to say poor people because we need this thing to fit in this one sentence. Right. So it's also, you have to create a level, I think of flexibility that doesn't feel like you're backing away from the commitment, the expectation. And that's a hard space to be in because, you know, and I think about folks who are like, you know, the social warrior, justice person who's like saying all the right words all the right time and, you know, and those, that, that's great, you know, but it's also We've got to, I think, to your point, Heather, like, we gotta give room and grace for the learning.
00:46:02
And to say, like, I gotta do this thing here until I can figure out how to fix it in the future. My commitment is to figure out how to fix it in the future. So by doing that thing doesn't mean that I've totally abandoned what I think is important about that. Well, and I think thinking about, even thinking about our work, you know, I think for however many years, for almost 60 years, we've discussed this work as anti poverty work. And I think what we've been trying to do is really position it more as prosperity work.
00:46:34
So what I've adopted saying is like, we're an anti poverty agency or as we like to consider it, pro prosperity. Would I like to just say pro prosperity? Sure. But no one knows what that means. So let's not, let's not be mentally confusing to make a point.
00:46:51
Let's, let's call people in and then, you know, and every time I say that, people, like, give very knowing looks. So maybe in the future, once we've educated folks, that will be a reality. But. Yeah, right, Y' all are thought leaders here too, with your language, you know, saying pro. What was it?
00:47:07
Probably pro prosperity. Yes. And the more you say prosperity, my bad. I'll get it. But that's it.
00:47:15
You are educating us and you're leading us as leaders. Do leaders gotta lead? Now? I do have a question. I am imagining and.
00:47:21
Oh, go ahead, Beck. No, no, I was just gonna say, I just want to add to what Kristy just said a second ago, which is that also people are already confused about what we do and have misconceptions of what we do within community action. I mean, we have, you know, there's, you know, over a thousand community action agencies across the country. Not everyone has community action in title and name. Some are embedded in local county, which means that some are public, some are nonprofit.
00:47:40
You have local community needs being considered. This is my soapbox. You know, anybody who's in community action is going to hear this ramble and be like, yeah, Beck, you're. Yes, right. We're addressing local community needs, which means the way in which everybody does that is very different and the approach looks different.
00:47:53
And even within one county, you know, the approach changes from zip code to zip code. So, you know, we're already complicated. And so to try to change the words that we use with our community, who already doesn't understand us, is just an added complication to an already overwhelming what sometimes Feels like, to me, an overwhelming branding issue that we have. So for not for nothing, but we'll just say that out loud. I'm done now.
00:48:13
Heather, go ahead. That's amazing. Well, you. You teed it up perfectly. It's like, you know, I imagine that this is having ripple effects on other.
00:48:21
Other areas, not just website copy, but, you know, has this initiated or inspired any other culture or equity movements within Lancaster CAP? Yeah, I mean, I think for us, it's figuring out how do we put things into practice.
00:48:38
One of the things that I challenge myself and our team to consider is that we have been really committed to creating access to learning.
00:48:47
I am saying, show me where the application is happening.
00:48:53
That's where we are. I think, as a team is like, okay, we've done a lot of learning over the last five years. We poured in a lot of professional development and a lot of, you know, mindset and, you know, all the things. Like, it's like, now, how do we get into the practice of doing the thing that we learned and how much of that can really be soaked into the day, to the day's experience? So I would say right now, you know, our commitment is really around.
00:49:20
Like, how do we figure out how this becomes more. Like, this is our practice of these things. How do they align to our values? How do they show up in our work? I don't want to lead us on a journey of spending lots of dollars, resource, and time on all this learning.
00:49:36
And there's no application to that learning. And then without application, there's no transformation. I think we got to pause a little and say, okay, we've done a lot of learning over the last few years. Let's think about what our application looks like, and then we can come back and say, where have we made progress in this space? What has changed that we have to pay attention to?
00:49:56
And then, like, okay, now we'll have to do some more learning. I think it should be probably a very secular process. I think that's just kind of where we are. I don't know, Kristy, if you would agree with, you know, the application. Yes, definitely.
00:50:06
And I mean, especially I think when you look at, specifically at this project, like, the next step following, like, the glossary, is the fact that this glossary is a living document. And so there's also going to be a process created where folks anywhere in the organization can submit a new word to be considered that we can talk about. We can research, we can do that whole thing. We can take things out of the glossary. It's always you think about, even just over the past couple decades, there are words we're not using anymore and for good reason.
00:50:43
And so I think that idea of living, you know, proactivity can be applied to so many other things that we're doing, especially things that are process oriented. And so I think that that can become like almost an element of culture that touches this project, but that can touch other projects as well. Yeah. So I know that we're coming up on our time here and I want to be respectful of your all's time and it's, you know, about time to end our time together. So want to make sure to just say, is there anything else that either one of you want to share about the impact of what this has been personally, professionally, anything else that you haven't shared?
00:51:24
And I also just want to give a shout out to CAP Lanc for folks who are listening. Right. You don't know about the organization, check them out on the website. CAPlanc.org would really encourage you to think about, right. How you can share time, resources that can be volunteering, that can be dollars, lots of other ways connecting to other folks who are in the community.
00:51:43
But please, please. And if. And or you can also go to theCAAP.org and go to our member section and check them out and research specific to Lancaster County. So. But anything else that you want to share specific to.
00:51:54
I think the only other thing I would say is like, we are, we are enthusiastic about having continuing this conversation and broadening it beyond just our organization. Right. So whether or not that's other CAAP’s in the Commonwealth, whether or not that's other nonprofits, you know, whoever it is, like, would love to just continue the conversation because I feel like this work will only really be. It'll only, I mean, not that it won't matter, but it will matter for the community. The broader, you know, the broader it's adopted and the broader it's thought about.
00:52:35
And I think, you know, especially for folks outside the organization, like just thinking about, right. How does this maybe apply to you? And maybe it doesn't at all. But like, I would love to just, you know, continue the conversation and see what other people are thinking and, you know, help inform us. Us help inform other folks, you know, and just make it like, you know, something that can kind of go across and touch any, you know, anyone in Lancaster county or beyond.
00:53:04
Yeah. And the only thing I'll add is one is a lot of gratitude for Kristy. This was kind of her passion project that she, you know, really advocated to figure out how we would resource and for us to do. She has, you know, worked through a lot of her own learning, you know, in the role that she has and then coming to the organization. So I think this is one of the kind of the fruits of her labor.
00:53:24
And I just want to make sure that folks, you know, that she knows that I appreciate that about her and that it's been a deep joy to see her kind of gravitate towards this space and own it and be, you know, what many, especially as a person of color, it's really great to have, you know, white counterparts who are willing to hold space, you know, in these kinds of conversations, to be the bridge and to be part of the learning. So just a lot of gratitude for Kristy as she's kind of led this work. And I think for us is just to, you know, we're in an interesting time, you know, where language is, you know, really kind of being challenged in lots of ways. And, you know, we're trying to be really thoughtful about how do we ensure that our services are available to other community that we serve and that we can hold true to who we are as an organization. Sometimes those two things feel, you know, intention with one another.
00:54:17
So just a point of encouragement to those of you who are part of the CAAP community or who are part of any service, you know, related role that you're just trying to make your communities better. Just keep your heads up. You know, we're going to figure out, you know, what the next iteration will be, but our words will matter, and they'll matter in times of the present, but they'll matter in history. So just be encouraged. Oh, absolutely.
00:54:41
I appreciate saying that. And I also want to just echo what Vanessa, you said a minute ago, because I've worked with Kristy in other environments outside of CAAP, and Kristy, you're always somebody that I think of as a true ally in lots of different ways. So appreciate you standing up for others and making sure to invite people to the table, be at the table, all the things. So I want to shout you out for that. And Vanessa, just, you know, for you.
00:55:04
Right. We'll say, I always appreciate you asking hard questions and not being scared of digging into a project like this. That could feel really overwhelming. Right. And just, you know, I think perspective from team and having to navigate that, it just adds another complication to your point.
00:55:22
Right. About earlier, about this may not feel like a project in light of all of the other things that are happening, but ultimately it really does create really important impact for your organization and establishes a culture norm for what the organization cares about. So I appreciate both of your time today. Thank you for spending some time with Heather and I. Heather, any other questions that you have before we wrap today? Just a comment.
00:55:48
This has been a master class in the future and possibilities. And so, Vanessa, Kristy, thank you for bringing this to light. This work is so incredibly important and critical and crucial to our future. So you're leading the way, sis. So keep it up.
00:56:06
Both of you. Thank you so much. I need to be at my house. To, like, every day. Not for nothing, I am still hired.
00:56:15
Just saying. Oh, my gosh. Good to know. Almost every episode, I feel like. I feel like we talk about this like, Heather is the ultimate hype person.
00:56:22
I feel like, you know, it's. She drinks half caf, which if you're a listener, you already know. I do. I drink like four double espressos a day. I still am tired.
00:56:31
I don't. I don't know what is happening. But, yeah, if you need a hype person out there, anybody. Heather Holloway. She's for hype.
00:56:38
Hh. Heather Hype. Yeah. Appreciate y'. All.
00:56:42
Thank you so much for doing this work. Yeah. Thanks, everybody, for listening. Thank you for hanging out with us, putting on your thinking CAAP. We'll catch you on the next episode.
00:56:49
Bye, everybody. Bye.
00:56:54
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If you have any Community Action questions you’d like Beck or one of our local experts to answer in a future episode, please email your questions about Community Action to info@thecaap.org—subject line: Thinking CAAP.