Navigating Leadership with Hattie McCarter: Heart-Forward and High-Performing
In this deeply human conversation, Beck Moore and Heather Holloway sit down with Hattie B. McCarter, Founder and Culture Strategist at MEND Solutions, to talk about the real emotional weight of leadership.
From anxiety and burnout to boundary setting and grace, Hattie opens up about what it means to lead when your tank is running low and why true leadership starts with honesty about your capacity. Together, they explore how to stay present, protect your peace, and redefine success through self-awareness and compassion.
This episode is equal parts therapy session and leadership masterclass—filled with laughter, real talk, and moments that remind you you’re not alone in the work.
Discover more about Hattie McCarter and MEND Solutions
Website: https://mendsolutionsllc.org/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theleadup-mend23
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hbmccartermend2023/
Thinking CAAP Episode 25 Highlights
[00:00] Opening & Introductions
Beck and Heather welcome guest Hattie B. McCarter, founder of MEND Solutions, and celebrate her impact across the CAAP network.
Hattie jokes about finally being invited on the show and calls Heather her “new bestie for life.”
[04:00] Hattie’s Story & Mission
Heather reads Hattie’s bio, highlighting her 17 years of experience advancing DEI and founding MEND Solutions.
Hattie reflects on how strange it feels hearing her own achievements read aloud and reminds herself how far she’s come.
[07:02] Presence Over Productivity
Beck and Hattie discuss the pressure of always thinking ahead instead of being present.
Hattie shares her effort to slow down, appreciate accomplishments, and be more intentional in the moment.
[08:38] The Weight of Leadership
Hattie opens up about overthinking and carrying others’ emotions as an empathetic leader.
She describes how this constant vigilance creates stress and emotional fatigue that many leaders don’t recognize.
[11:49] Carrying the “Weighted Vest”
Beck compares leadership stress to wearing a weighted vest—physically and emotionally heavy.
They explore how presenting personal stories in their work leaves them vulnerable but also connects them to others.
[13:59] “Here. Now.” – Heather’s Grounding Practice
Heather shares her mantra “Here. Now.” to help stay present before speaking or leading.
She reminds listeners that stress nearly broke her body, encouraging others to slow down and breathe.
[15:34] Hattie’s Pre-Talk Ritual
Hattie reveals her pre-presentation routine: prayer, positive energy, and music from Kendrick Lamar.
She emphasizes leaving “her entire body on stage” and setting boundaries to protect her energy afterward.
[18:11] Permission to Exit
Hattie gives attendees permission to step away from sessions that aren’t serving them.
She encourages leaders to do the same—make choices that honor capacity and peace.
[21:03] “Is This Space Deserving of Me?”
Hattie shares advice from a friend: ask whether a space deserves your presence.
The hosts reflect on the power of walking away from environments that drain you.
[23:08] Leading with Honesty
Hattie urges leaders to say, “I don’t have the capacity today,” instead of pretending to.
Beck admits distractions once kept him from giving full attention, realizing how that hurt his team’s trust.
[28:13] Vulnerability and Boundaries
Hattie discusses the challenge of leading authentically while protecting her own heart.
She reflects on learning that not everyone can handle transparency or respect personal boundaries.
[33:42] The Exhaustion of Line-Crossers
Habitual boundary-crossers push Hattie to silence, which she realizes is a sign of hurt, not peace.
She shares how isolation becomes another heavy weight that leaders carry.
[35:19] Breaking Points and Healing
Hattie recounts a panic attack that revealed she hadn’t fully healed from trauma.
She emphasizes that masking pain only delays true recovery and self-forgiveness.
[36:42] Beck on Self-Pressure and Authenticity
Beck relates to Hattie’s struggle, describing guilt over not living up to his own message of authenticity.
He explains learning that disagreement doesn’t mean abandonment or rejection.
[38:34] Triggers and Self-Awareness
Heather admits she’s learning to recognize triggers and forgive herself faster.
Hattie says true leadership starts with knowing yourself before leading others.
[40:41] Finding Peace in Japan
Hattie describes how a solo trip to Japan gave her clarity after burnout from caregiving, work, and business ownership.
Journaling helped her confront hidden anger and rediscover self-acceptance.
[43:16] “Die Empty” – Living with Purpose
A friend’s phrase, “I just want to die empty,” inspires Hattie to pour out her gifts without holding back.
She encourages leaders to show up fully and release hate, rage, and fear to make space for grace.
[46:50] Defining Moments of Purpose
Hattie shares that her “Let Me Hold Your Trauma Bags” session at CAAP’s conference was life-changing.
Seeing participants find freedom confirmed her calling and the mission of MEND Solutions.
[49:47] The Power of Connection
Beck recalls moments when audience feedback reminded him his work truly mattered.
They celebrate the joy of resonating with even one person who feels seen and changed.
[55:59] Learning to Accept Praise
Heather talks about learning to simply say “thank you” instead of downplaying compliments.
Hattie notes that receiving recognition is difficult for those who grew up questioning their worth.
[58:57] Bias and Identity
Hattie shares stories of racial bias and assumptions made about her appearance and name.
Beck adds his perspective as a transgender leader navigating bias and privilege from multiple angles.
[01:06:22] Shared Humanity and Growth
Hattie recalls how her husband’s understanding evolved after meeting Beck, deepening his empathy.
She praises Beck’s leadership, saying CAAP’s culture of care reflects his authenticity.
[01:10:58] Leadership Through Love
Beck describes how the CAAP team’s unity and compassion make conferences successful.
Hattie says the team’s prayer and support showed her what “family at work” can look like.
[01:17:56] Final Advice: Protect Your Peace
Hattie closes with wisdom for leaders: love yourself, give grace, and protect your peace at all costs.
“Snatch your peace back—that belongs to you.”
[01:20:00] Closing & Shoutouts
Beck plugs Hattie’s upcoming magazine The Lead Up and her partnership with CAAP Learn.
The episode ends with gratitude, laughter, and mutual admiration between friends.
Episode 25 Transcript
00:00:00
What's up, everybody? Welcome to the Thinking CAAP. I'm Beck Moore, CEO of Community Action Association of Pennsylvania. With me today, my always fearless co host, Heather Holloway. Holloway Media Services. What's up, Heather?
00:00:10
Oh, my gosh.
00:00:12
If. If I could be a living version, I think of a. The ta da emoji. That's me. Ta da. I'm doing great, Beck. How are you, Fred?
00:00:23
As good as always. Trying to do decompress after conference and get right with the. With the world again and catch up with all the things. But I'm happy to be here with our next guest today, my friend, colleague, confidant, sister from another Mr. I don't know. However you want to describe one of my besties in the whole world, who I am blessed to call chosen Family, Hattie McCarter, my girl. What's up, Hattie?
00:00:49
Hi, everybody. Oh, I love that introduction. Ooh, that feels good.
00:00:54
Feels good to be on the Thinking CAAP.
00:00:56
It's true.
00:00:56
It does. You so much for having me. It's such an honor. And I get so excited just sharing the space with you back. And, like, Heather is my newfound bestie. So I'm like, we are in this together. Like, we're best friends for life. So I just want to just put.
00:01:11
That out there in the universe.
00:01:12
That's it. It's. It's on the recording.
00:01:14
It is.
00:01:15
I was thinking about this episode earlier today, and I was like, you know, I had to do a podcast recording this morning with somebody else. Not for our episode, but for somebody else. And I was just thinking about this afternoon. I was like, oh, am I in the right space to kind of do a podcast? Then I was like. I clicked in my brain. I was like, oh, no, it's. It's. It's Hattie. But this is gonna be. This is like having a conversation. It's all good. This is just spending time with friends.
00:01:37
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
00:01:39
And I feel like it's also past due, by the way. Like, you should have been on, like, 10 episodes ago. I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna say that out loud. So hear me say.
00:01:47
I was just waiting on the phone call. Like, when is somebody gonna call me?
00:01:50
I mean, you're. You're a busy lady, so, you know.
00:01:54
Don'T do me like that. I thought we were here, but I was like, the more and more I see episodes, like, we kind of went below. I said, okay, have a conversation.
00:02:04
No, I thought you were teed up, but I. My bad. I'm just gonna say that right now. Should have Got you on sooner, but I'm happy to have you now. I am certain that we'll have you on it for a couple episodes, so I appreciate it.
00:02:16
I'm excited.
00:02:17
This. This is just part one.
00:02:19
Yes.
00:02:19
But I know the CAAP. I know that our teams, our conference attendees, our summit attendees had. You are a favorite every single year that we have you. We try to get you there every single time we have an event. So I know that our folks at CAAP and our network knows you, but our broader audience may not. So, Heather, if you can tell us a little bit about Hattie. I know she's just as uncomfortable as I am having her bio read, but we're going to do it to her anyway. So take it away, Heather.
00:02:46
We're going to give it the full experience. Hattie B. McCarter is a passionate advocate for equity and inclusion with over 17 years. You wouldn't know it because she don't. I mean, it looks like you just came out. You know what I'm saying? So here we go. So she has over 17 years of experience breaking down systemic barriers and fostering belonging. A proud native of Enterprise, Alabama High tide. I mean, low tide. Just kidding. Just kidding. Alabama. She brings both heart and strategy to her work. After earning her master's in rehabilitation counseling from Alabama State University, Hattie spent more than a decade advancing DEI and recruitment efforts at the Office of vocational rehabilitation. In 2023, she founded MEND Solutions, a consulting firm dedicated to embedding equity into organizational culture. Recognized as a trendsetter and trailblazer by Penn Live and Heather Holloway and Beck Moore, and honored with the DEI Trailblazer Award by the National Coalition of 100 Black Women, Hattie leads with compassionate listening, courageous action, and a mission to ensure everyone has a seat at the table. Hattie, thank you for doing the work you do.
00:04:00
Thank you. I appreciate that. I get emotional just thinking about it because it is some heavy work, but I do feel like that's my calling. And so I always get uncomfortable when people read my bio because I'm like, who is that person? Like, I don't know. Could you. With yourself 24 7. Right? And you're just like, I don't. I don't even remember doing all of that. I don't even remember why I did what I did. But when I. So when people read makes me feel like, wow, I have overcome a lot of things. So thank you so much for your applause and praises and all that.
00:04:39
Oh, yeah, you did it, and you're doing it, you know.
00:04:42
Thank you.
00:04:42
Hattie you got a chance to meet my, my other very dear friend Amanda Shelton, who runs the Texas association for Community Action. And she texted me earlier today and she was speaking at an energy summit in Texas and she's like, things that I never thought I would do. And so what you just said there, right. Like it's part I just get when I have my bio read, I'm like, I don't know this guy. Like, I don't, I don't. It just like doesn't sometimes connect. It's like things I never thought I would do and now I'm doing or didn't know existed and I'm now doing.
00:05:11
Right.
00:05:11
You know, it's a weird, it's a weird feeling.
00:05:14
Yeah. Because you're always trying to accomplish the next.
00:05:17
Right.
00:05:17
Right. I think people who are, and I can assume we're all like goal driven individuals, like, we're just like, I gotta get it and I gotta get it now. Feel like we share the same mentality as like we only have one life. And because I have this one life, I want to live it to my fullest and I want to be able to pour out as much as I can. And so we're always thinking about like, okay, I accomplished that. What is next? But some of the things that I've been trying to be really intentional about, especially this year, is like being present in the moment, being present in the things that are happening right now and not trying to think about what's going to happen in January or February. I've just learned that I'm always a forward thinker and that can be a blessing, but it can also be a curse at the same time because when you don't accomplish what you really want to accomplish, you then you feel defeated, then you feel like, okay, well what can I do to be able to maximize? And you're not embracing the appreciation and the love and the motivation that you're giving other people. So like I really been. And that's very difficult for me because I'm like, what's next? I'm not really trying to be intentional. So I've really been trying to push myself to just be and to be still and to be like, okay, this is great, I embraced it, I like it, I accomplished it. You know, like, what are some things that I could do better? What are some things that I probably, you know, achieved where I didn't think that I would? So I try to have these self reflection questions, but sometimes life is life in and I can't. So. But I've really Been trying to, like, keen in on some of those things about me.
00:07:02
So, yeah, so I. We just got finished with our conference, like I mentioned in our kind of intro. And I know, Heather, you weren't there. That's fine. You were in London.
00:07:08
Whatever, whatever.
00:07:10
But how do. You and I were there together and we were hitting. You had. You did a session. You helped do our closing, which we'll get to, I think, in our conversation this afternoon. But getting kind of geared up for conference, there was a lot. There's a lot that's happening post conference, because there always is. And I kept saying to people and sort of stopping myself from saying, I just need to get through conference, because I didn't want to just get through conference, right? Like, I wanted to be there with my people. I wanted to spend time. You know, the only way I can think about it right now is sort of in fellowship, right? Like, spend time with just people who are trying to get things done, people who needed to not feel alone right now. And so I so feel that. And last year, I was reflecting on conference from 2024, and we. I had just found out that my chief operating officer, Amanda Hoprich, was leaving the organization. And I was living throughout conference with just this mindset of, at the end of this, I've got to tell my team that Amanda's leaving. And I didn't realize how much of a burden that took when I was in it. And so when reflecting in last year's conference to this conference, the energy that I know that I brought to just my interactions was so different. It just felt different. And so I think it's like both of those things, right? Like, thinking of just being in the now, being in it, spending time with people, it's hard. It's hard, particularly for those of us who are new or divergent and can't stop thinking about all the things all the time.
00:08:38
That part. Yeah, that part. My anxiety takes over, and I'm an overthinker. Like, I will overanalyze a piece of chicken if it look different or if it doesn't feed my soul. I'm like, why does this chicken look like this? Does the chicken have a disability? Where did the chicken come from? Was the chicken raised in Amish country or was it raised? Like, all these things happen in my mind, right? And my husband was like, just eat the chicken. And so. But we don't, because we're thinking so much. I feel like that's part of us being empathetic leaders, right? Because we're not. We're not thinking about us, right? We're thinking about our people. We're thinking about how they feel, what are they going to take from it. We're thinking about, you know, what are they thinking about and how are they feeling. And the sessions that we're doing, is it good or is it bad or does this presenter. Is it. Are they track like all these things are happening and we miss the moment, right, because we're so on guard because we're trying to. We come in a place to where we're already guarded or hypervigilant to be hypervigilant for other people. So we're like, let me take that burden off of you. But in actuality, we are really stressing ourselves out to no end to where like when people are asking us a simple question, we can't even answer the simple question because we're so focused on something else that we don't need to be focused on. And we don't know how to compartmentalize other people's energy that we take in as empathetic leaders. So, like, and people don't realize a lot of this is happening within seconds.
00:10:13
Real time. Yeah, yeah, real time.
00:10:15
Yeah, within seconds. And so like, even when I went up to present for the closing, so many questions were like, going through my mind. And so I had to tell myself like, Hattie, just focus on what Beck is saying. So like, I was, I don't know if you noticed, but I was staring you down because I'm just like, if I. If my mind starts to wonder, I'm not going to remember my cue to get on stage, right? I'm might fumble on my words. I'm like, so let me just be focused on Beck and be present and be happy that I'm able to do this. So it's just, it's a lot of work. Being in this space is a lot of work trying to be the leader that you want people to see and that is like, you want to be a good example for them. And so also it's a lot of pressure just on me. Being a woman of color, being a woman of color who's an entrepreneur, who's a leader, who's trying to navigate this space of uncertainty and still showing up for people who look like me, but also who don't look like me, and also trying to be that friend, trying to be that person, you know, that you trust in doing the things that you've called me to do. Trying to be a wife, a daughter, a care, like all these things that we are carrying with us Every day. And I don't know if people sometimes realize that, that as a leader, like all of these. I talked to my presentation about all these bags that we're carrying with us on a day to day basis. It is a lie.
00:11:49
Yeah, yeah. It's a way. It's a weighted vest. If. I don't know if anybody knows anything about occupational therapy. But like, right. Like when, like my son, when he was little, we would, we would do a weighted vest because he needed like big energy things to get his energy out. Like there was just nothing that, you know, like carved through his energy enough. And so we do these weighted vests. Think about like it's just like a backpack, right? You put weights in or like it's literally a weighted vest. Or if you think about like the weights you put on your ankles for people who are trying to train, it's like your body is covered in weighted stuff. Right. And it literally, like, you know, you're show. You can feel it in your shoulders. You can talked about like my jaw clenching. Talk about like your hands taking all of this like stress and it literally just weights you down in a way that you start to feel really physically. And that can manifest itself in all kinds of wild ways, of course. But like. Yeah, no, I feel that all day long. It's. We've talked about this so many times and it's something that I know we all of us feel very similarly about. We all present on things that are deeply personal to us, you know, that we tell our origin stories, we talk about, you know, our bodies that we've lived in previously. We talk about our experiences previously. We've talked about the expectations that we've had to sort of felt like we've had to live up to and then taking, taking those expectations off and in, in different ways. All three of us. Right. But all three of us, that's sort of the similarity that weaves us together. And when we present it, also we give a part of ourselves to our audiences. Right. Like I'm, I'm tearing open my insides.
00:13:29
Yeah.
00:13:30
I'm taking off, I'm taking off the weights.
00:13:32
Yeah.
00:13:33
And I'm just going to show you what's inside.
00:13:35
Yeah. So that you can do the same. By the way, the diversity on this call right now is just. Ow. You know, for me, we're here for it. We love it. More of this, please.
00:13:48
Intersectionality times 3. 300.
00:13:52
Yes, yes. You know, I'm a public speaker, I'm a leader, I'm a business owner, I'm a wife.
00:13:59
I'M a daughter.
00:13:48
I'm a dog mom. Right? All these things, you know, and you're right, we can get caught up, so caught up in the future and. And the what ifs and the stories we tell ourselves. And so, you know, when I go on stage, I like to meditate right before I go on stage. And that grounds me in the moment. I mean, there is the quote, like, there is no better time than now. Right? That is all we have. Now, now, now, now. So a little mantra that I like to do that might offer a little relief for you amazing, empathetic, generous leaders with beautiful big hearts is two words. Here, now, here, now. So I repeat that to myself, and I just wanted to offer that the next time you get on stage back and Hattie. And. Or the next time you have to have a difficult conversation and listen, they're happening all day, every day right now. So if that offers any sort of, you know, any sort of inspiration for your next meeting. The other thing I do like to tell myself is be the noodle. So. And I've said that on this podcast before. But beating the noodle, and I just shake out the shoulders. I just shake it out. Yeah, there you go. Be the noodle, right? Learn that from Fraggle Rock. I mean, listen, love me some Fraggle Rock rock.
00:15:17
So.
00:15:18
And like you said, Beck, you know, I damn near killed myself with stress.
00:15:22
Yeah.
00:15:22
So I'm here to tell the. Tell the tale that.
00:15:25
Yeah.
00:15:26
Oh, man, it's heavy. But we can do this. We can do this.
00:15:29
Hattie, what do you. What do you do to pump yourself up before. Before a talk, before a presentation? Do you do anything?
00:15:34
You know what? I always try my best to go into a room and just. I try to give out really positive energy. Right. So I am a praying woman, so I will pray. But I'm also very adamant about, like, the people who are supposed to be here, let them be here, and the people who are not. I was like, let them pass this door because honestly, we don't have the time nor the energy. But, like, one of my go to songs is Kendrick Lamar. Like, I'm a huge. And you know this about me. I'm a huge Kendrick Lamar fan, and I always play like they not like us. But before that song, it is I won't cuss on the podcast, but it will say, honey, don't kill my vibe. How about that? And so, so those are the two songs that I listen to. And some people like, oh, well, that's contradicting. You listen to that and you praying wow.
00:16:37
We're all an enigma. So it's fine. You know, we've all got layers.
00:16:42
We do, we do. And I am very transparent in my layers. Like, I will pray for you and cuss you out at the same time. That's just me.
00:16:49
No, I feel that.
00:16:50
I feel that. Equal. Yeah. But I. I do that because I know that I am bringing a lot to myself, to whatever room that I'm showing up in. Like, I literally leave my entire body on the stage with people. And so I know after I get finished presenting, like, I have to exit stage left because that I am holding space for so many people and so many energies in the room. I'm like, I just gotta let this out. Because if not, I'm going to get frustrated. I'm going to try to figure out how can I help this person and that person. This person. So I had to teach myself how to hold it, but also let it go at the same time. So those two songs and me just coming in and just realizing that not everybody's going to like what I said. Not everybody is not going to resonate with everybody. And that's okay. I just had to tell myself, like, hattie, whatever you say and do, it is purposeful. And if people don't receive it, that's on them. That's not on you.
00:17:57
Well, not everybody's here. Not everybody's there to. At a place that they can receive the message sometimes. Right. Like, I always try to meet. And I know all of us do this. We all try to meet everybody where they are in that room, but sometimes people. It's just the time isn't right.
00:18:10
Yeah.
00:18:11
And I think that's. I think that's part of it.
00:18:13
Right. I agree with that. I also think too, like, a lot of. I feel like now people are just showing up in spaces to be transactional. Yeah. Right. They're not really showing up in a space to receive. And that's difficult for me because sometimes I can feel that even before I talk to a person. Yeah.
00:18:34
It's like you feel the room isn't even open. It's just like, so you can, like, feel it in the air. It's like static, like.
00:18:42
Yeah, it's real nasty. Yeah.
00:18:46
Why even here? Just get gone.
00:18:48
Go.
00:18:48
Go take a call. Because if you don't want to be here, peace out.
00:18:52
And I always invite people like, look, if this is not for you, I say, even if you were mandated or not, I am giving you permission to exit stage left because I don't want your energy or your views and things, not that they will not be received or respected, but we're not here to cause harm for anybody. And that. That includes me as a facilitator. What all I say is, what we're not going to do is this. So if you feel some type of way, if you woke up on the wrong side of the bed or something that I say is triggering to you, let me know. But if you can't handle it, then you can always step out. That's what I think. As a leader, we have to give our people permission to figure out and make a choice what they want to do and what they don't want to do.
00:19:37
Yeah, I usually. That's part of why I do the upfront contract when I speak, because I want to make sure, you know, look, if you're here to, to listen to a quote, unquote, DEI expert, I'm not an expert. Mainly because I don't feel like anybody's an expert in this space because we're constantly learning and growing and the world's continuing to evolve. And so you can't truly ever be an expert. But that's my soapbox number two. I'm not here to change your mind. Right. We're just here to have a conversation. We're going to agree to disagree. That's okay. And ultimately, I'm not always. I would say that I'm never the best at anything. I've made all the mistakes, learn from my mistakes. You know, I think that, again, it's sort of similar to what you do, right? Like, it's the permission to exit if you want to exit, or, you know, you just go somewhere, go to another session somewhere else, whatever.
00:20:29
Yeah, do what you gotta do for yourself.
00:20:30
Right.
00:20:31
Talking about leaders leading right now. Hattie, thank you so much. I needed this permission. There's a particular thing happening in my life right now where I feel complete. And I was triggered, too. And like you said, listen, if it's not feeling good, exit. And I needed this. I really needed you to say that out loud. Thank you so much. Because I clearly, I feel that. And it takes courage to say a message right back like that. Like, yeah, if you don't fit in, get on out.
00:21:03
Yeah, I mean, it takes. And I'm telling quick, like, look, there is absolutely no love lost. Because I get it. Because I know a lot of times, just people, we're showing up to work when we really don't want to. We're showing up to conversations that we really don't want to have with people, you know, It's a lot of things that we just as human beings, are mandated to do. And we are telling people like, you don't have a choice in this or that, but you do have a choice. You. You always have a choice. But you have to remember that your choices that you make is going to impact something in your life, even if it's good, bad, or indifferent. But I just. That's something, once again, that I had to just tell myself, like, Heidi, you have a choice. Give yourself permission to do whatever it is that you want to do. And if you don't like it, say that. One of my good friends, Ellen Min, she had told me a long time ago that when she shows up in spaces, she asks this question, is this space deserving of me? And she was like, if it's not, she exits stage left. And I was like. I was like. I was like, sis. I was like, do we do that? She was like, absolutely. And I was present with her one time when she said it, and she was like, this space is not deserving of us. And she was like, we just need to go and have some cocktails or something. And we left.
00:22:30
Wow.
00:22:30
And I was like, oh, that's power.
00:22:34
I think it's you, Hattie, that we were having a conversation and we were talking about something and about attention that you give somebody when you're in a space. And if somebody's always looking around and swiveling their head looking for the other person that they want to talk to, who's more important than me when you're having the conversation with me? And I think, Ellen, I, you know, shout out to Ellen, former podcast guest as well, similar conversation with her at different points.
00:23:03
Yeah, yeah. You can tell when somebody's interested in your conversation.
00:23:08
Oh, absolutely.
00:23:11
You can absolutely tell. And one of the things that I'm trying to empower leaders is that give yourself to tell people. Like, look, I don't have the capacity today to have this conversation. Right. Especially if you are an employee going to a manager. I hate it when I see somebody kind of have a very critical conversation and the. The person is talking, but the other individual is looking someplace else. They're on their phone, they're like looking at the time. And I'm just like, it probably took a lot of courage for that individual to come and just have the conversation with you. You don't know what type of self-talk they went through. You don't know what type of countertransference that they are experiencing with you in this moment. So I'm like, at least Give them attention. Or, or to be honest enough and just say, look, can you come back? I'm really busy. Or like, I just am not in the mindset to have the conversation.
00:24:10
I'm distracted. I got something else on my mind. I want to give you my undivided attention, but I just don't have it today.
00:24:18
Where do you think the fear comes from? From being honest and being like, I don't have the capacity right now. I guess as a leader, you're supposed to have all the capacity.
00:24:26
Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I think it's a couple things. I mean, I think that there's people who just don't realize that they're not giving their undivided attention. I mean, I was that person for a long time. Never for, yet. When my wife and I worked together before we ever started dating, I had an Apple watch. And I con. I like, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. I like. It's, it's like I can't squirrel. Like I can't not look at it. Even if I feel it vibrate, if I see it. Like, if I have a notification on my phone, I have to turn all my notifications off. None of my notifications are on my phone because if I see the notification, I can't stop myself.
00:25:00
Yeah, Pavlov's gone.
00:25:01
That's by design, by the way.
00:25:02
Oh, no. I know, but it's, it's like, it's like anxiety driven. I've got to know.
00:25:06
Yes.
00:25:07
And so at one point and I, this is where, you know, bless her. She was very direct as, I mean, she's very direct as my wife as well, but as an employee sometimes, like, and as her manager, like, it was a little off putting because she'd just be like, I need you to turn your watch off because you're not paying attention to me. And I, I. There are certain moments that I have had with people in my managerial experience and career that I will never forget. And that was one of them. And the moment she said that, I was like, okay, I got you. I'm not, I'm going to take off the Apple watch. I actually stopped when we start, started dating. I actually stopped wearing an Apple watch entirely because I knew it bothered her so much because it, it just, again, it was, it was, it was distracting. I used to sit at a desk. I had a very big office at one point. I don't anymore. To be clear, nobody comes to visit me here at my house. No.
00:26:02
But we can make that happen.
00:26:04
Come on. You'll have to deal with my dogs. But I had an office where I sat at a desk, and I even had a conference table in my office. But I was able to just sit at my desk and I would get distracted by my email, and I'd be like, oh, hold on a second, I got to respond to this. Oh, hold on a second, I got to respond to this. And so I just think sometimes, I mean, for me, anyway, it was like I didn't even. I didn't even realize what that was doing to people because again, ADHD times a thousand. I wasn't medicated.
00:26:31
Right?
00:26:31
Was. I was just. I couldn't. I couldn't stop it. I couldn't stop it. I couldn't live in the moment there. The moment was all the things all the time. So I think some of it is that. I also think it's just there's this mentality of if I'm a boss, I'm a boss. There's no, like, there's a layer here. And I can't let you know who I am as a person because of, you know, fear of being attacked or that's just not what a boss is supposed to be.
00:27:00
Right.
00:27:01
We're not supposed to be vulnerable. We're not supposed to be these things. It's this expectation that we've sort of seen in, you know, culture and media. And so I think for a long time, that was just the expectations. Why? Right. Like old school, HR thought was, you come, you do your job, you get your paycheck. I don't want to hear about your feelings. You don't get to put your picture. We put one picture of your family on your desk, and that is all. And you're going to come and you're going to work, and that's it. And today we all know that, right? Psychological safety, number one desired trait. Most desired trait in the workplace. And so we've got to like hr. It's different now. Leadership, it's starting. You know, the trends are changing. Right. We've got to adapt. The workforce is changing. But I don't even think people. Again, I don't think that it's. There's not been a lot of really great models of leadership in most people's life. Think about how many good supervisors you've had. Good. And that's supervisors. Not even the. Right. The great leaders, teachers.
00:27:59
Right. Like. Yeah, right.
00:28:01
People in, like, in power, in powerful positions, positions of privilege, where they are in a position of leadership in some capacity. A lot of us don't have really good examples of That I can tell.
00:28:13
You the worst examples, right? Like, we can pull that up.
00:28:16
And so how do you. So how do you learn? Right.
00:28:19
Oh, honey, how much time do we have? Because you just opened up a whole nother book about just. Just that alone. I wanted to. You have struggled this year with leadership. I struggled with who I thought and now what I see. And, like, I am one of those type of people that when I come in, I'm coming in my full, authentic self. I will say a little.
00:28:52
Right.
00:28:52
And, you know, like, in my last. In my current job, you know, I first came in guard, was just all the way through the roof, and there was a moment to where, you know, I let it down. But then also, like, things just started happening, and I was like, I. I can't. I can't trust my vulnerabilities in this moment because I'm second. I was like, I was gaslighting myself. Why did I do that? Or maybe I shouldn't have, or. Yeah, you know, so all these things started happening, and I realized that not everybody can handle the vulnerability of an individual. Can handle the transparency, can handle the discomfort of having these uncomfortable conversations and still moving forward just as individuals. Also, sometimes people just can't handle boundaries that you put in place for yourself or with them or with others. And so it was one of those things, like, I really had a huge moment, was myself, like, okay, Hattie, what type of leader do you want to become? And what type of leader are you now? And I really had to have a very in depth talk with myself because there were some things that I needed to take accountability for and that I had to go back in and apologize, but also extend grace and forgiveness at the same time. Because, you know me, I. I'm very open to saying that I am. I am stubborn. Right. Once you. Once you cross me, I'm like, look, we're done. I. I don't have time. Like, my cutoff game is really, really strong.
00:30:35
You and my wife, very similar.
00:30:38
We could be sitting in the same room. You could be across from me. I would act like you're not even here. No, that I'm good at that.
00:30:43
That's actually.
00:30:46
But, you know, but that's toxic because the person on the other side probably has no idea that they've been cut off and. Right. They probably have no idea that they have done something to me that really caused a lot of harm. And so for me, I just take note. Like, I got a Rolodex. I'm like, oh, you doing that? Okay. Oh, okay, cool. I got you, and I never talk about it. And so I realized, like, that's causing more harm to me than the individual.
00:31:17
Because you got to keep that going.
00:31:21
It's another weight you're carrying.
00:31:22
It's a weight that I'm carrying, but there's also this unnecessary weight for you and this tension in whatever relationship that we have because you don't know why I'm feeling the way that I'm feeling, right? But in my mind, I'm like, well, you should know, because you did it.
00:31:37
I literally am living this right now.
00:31:39
Well, and I feel like I, I, when we were all presenting in the same space earlier this year, I. And I have this woven into my presentations now, and I always end up not getting to it as much as I want to. But this idea of boundary setting, I think, is really super critical. And I know that we're, like, within topic, but, like, also way off topic. What we were planning on talking about today, I'm just going to acknowledge that. But there's this song, right? And it's a kid song, and it's like, I'm going to not really sing it, but I'm going to kind of sing it. Just prepare yourself, Amy, if this is terrible, please cut it out. But it says something like, no, no, I don't like that. That's my boundary. And it's like this whole idea of, right, like, stop. I'm telling you to stop. I don't like it. This is the line in the sand, and it's really getting really crystallized in the video. Then it's like a kid pushing a kid off, like, down the slide before they're ready. It's a kid pushing another kid on a swing before they're ready. And I don't know if that concept of boundary setting was just skipped in our generation. And that's part of the problem. But it's like, I know for me, and if you've experienced trauma in any way, shape or form, that also, like, makes or breaks your ability to either be really good at boundary setting or really terrible about it. And I know that's part of my problem. But, like, boundary setting, it's in a. In an office space, in a leadership environment, in a work environment. I think that's one of the most crystallizing things that you could possibly do and make it okay and normalize it. It's. We have it woven into our workplace culture and values. We don't call it boundary setting, but the things that we. The behavior expectations that we have. It establishes behaviors to Allow for it. Because I think part of what you're talking about. How do you. Unless you want to tell me I'm wrong, I think that's part. That's very much at the core of. Part of this problem.
00:33:42
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, and sometimes it's like I call them, like, habitual line crossers, right? You try to give them opportunity, try to extend grace, and it just keep doing it. And for me, like, I'm a person. I know that when I have reach my max, my words and my tone are not as soft as they are now, right? And so I know that about me. And so in my mind, I just. I've just become very silent. And to me, that's like, oh, my silence is resetting the boundary. Like, I'm. I'm exhausted. I don't want to do it no more. But what my silence is really saying is that I'm hurt. I don't want to talk. I just want to be isolated. And I'm okay by just not being this way. But how my heart is, I really don't want that either. So it's like I'm. It's like I'm playing double dutch with the boundary.
00:34:33
That's where the rub is.
00:34:40
That's where the rub is. And then I just become so exhausted from it. It's like I try to push away, right? And as a leader, I know that I can't do that because I know that there are people that depend on me, and I know that there is something that I bring to whatever that relationship is that might be missing from that other individual. So it's like I'm robbing them from what my purpose is in their life and what their purpose is in my life at the same time. And so. But it's hard because like you said before, when we have experienced so much trauma, we don't want to experience the trauma ever again.
00:35:19
We don't want pain, right?
00:35:21
Because it brings out a side of you that you don't like and that you don't want people to see. In August, I had a really, really bad panic attack. Like, it was bad. And I realized, you know, you thought that you was healed. Once I looked when I looked at their shirt and I came to because my nose started to bleed, my eyes was blurry, I had a bad headache. Coworker had to drive me home. I realized, like, wow, I still got some work to do. Like, I'm not healed from that trauma that I thought that I was healed from. And because it just compounded like, one after the other, I just exploded. And that was a side that I didn't want people to see because I just remained silent or I took my rage and my anxiety out on people that really didn't deserve it. And so, like, I had to come back and apologize to those individuals, but I also had to apologize to myself because I'm like, since you thought she was doing the work, but I really wasn't. I was just masking it, right. So I can get to the next day, into the next day, or trying to compartmentalize. Like, well, they not really this individual in my life. So, like, I'm okay, but in actuality, I was just hurting all at the same time.
00:36:42
Yeah, no, I know that's. I mean, I've said this before, I think on the, on the podcast is that I know that's part of how I ended up breaking my arm this past year, you know, about a year ago. It just was. Was just too many things. I'd come off of so many speaking engagements. I wasn't taking care of myself. And I am constantly right, like, in combat with my own self about. I'm somebody who talks about authenticity. It's sort of right, like the thing that I hang my hat on all the time. And there are just. It's. I feel guilty then for, you know, like, this happening. And it's like this just constant battle. I think back and forth about, like, this is what I'm trying to talk about all the time. You're not living up to it. Then I feel bad. Then I put more pressure on myself. It's just. And. And part of that, I think, to your point, Hattie, is that trauma response a little bit. So, like, it's taken me, I think, only now, and I'm going to say year 44 of my life, to realize that just because we have a disagreement doesn't mean that it's goodbye. Doesn't mean that doesn't mean you're leaving. Right. Doesn't mean that you don't. You don't still love me. And I mean, this is like, as a friend, as a partner, you know, it doesn't mean automatic abandonment, but because abandonment is such a core part of.
00:38:01
Just how I was. Human design.
00:38:04
Right.
00:38:05
Like how I was, how I, Yeah. Have been in this world, that's. That's my response. Right? Like, we can't. If we disagree, that means you're gone. In my life, there's no more. And that then dictates how I behave in particularly personal relationships and work relationships is not as not the same. But in personal relationships, it's really kind of like the thing I tell that record, like, just continues to be on repeat in my brain all the time.
00:38:34
I feel all of this. I'm literally going through this real time. So I didn't know how healing and wonderful this conversation would be. So. Thank you, Beck. Thank you, Hattie. I know with me, with my response, I can't even look at the person.
00:38:50
I can't even look at them in.
00:38:51
The eyes because I'm like, wow, I don't even want to be in your presence. I don't want to. I don't see you, you know, and this literally happened to me last Tuesday. All the things she was triggered. Then it was fight or flight. Then it was, you're out of here. Then it was, wait a minute. Then it was, you know, well, now I feel guilty for. For, you know, act, you know, whatever. Then I have to forgive myself, forgive the other person. And didn't know that there was still a tender open wound when I was 17. And it was. Boop. It was touched.
00:39:25
Y. Yeah.
00:39:26
And it's. It's wild sometimes how it's just right there under the surface.
00:39:30
Oh, yeah.
00:39:31
It's just right there.
00:39:32
Yeah. And it's just right here, just like.
00:39:34
Shadow, kind of lurking. You didn't even know. You didn't know. It was just creeping up on you. And you're just all of a sudden.
00:39:40
Yeah. Because then you ask yourself, like, wow, I thought. I thought that I got over that. But in actuality, you didn't. You just was like, I'm just going to put this band aid on here. Am I trying to put some cover up on it? Push it to the side? Because if I no longer see them or hear them, then I am fine. And then in actuality, when that trigger happens, you don't know if it's going to be big, small, or like, you just don't know. And so I really try to teach people like you before you, whatever work that you're trying to do, you got to know yourself.
00:40:15
Oh, yes. Amen. A million times.
00:40:18
You have to know yourself. Because if you don't know you, then when certain things do happen, your response might be impulsive. It might be like, all. All these things. And so I really had to figure out, like, okay, well, who is Hattie? Who is Hattie in this situation? And honestly, I just got back from Japan a couple weeks ago.
00:40:41
I was going to ask you about your trip.
00:40:43
So, look, when I tell everybody I'm Japanese, I am.
00:40:48
I'm following you. I'm coming right with you.
00:40:51
It was one of the best vacations, but I was so at peace and it allowed me to reflect on this whole entire year. You know, taking care of my mom for 10 months wore me out trying to run a business and have a full time job wore me out trying to be married, wore me out trying to be a friend. I was like, lord, I don't know if I'm coming or if I'm going. And so when I went to Japan, I just told my family, I'm like, look, download WhatsApp. I'm like, because it's going to cost me 25 cents a minute to talk to you versus T mobile. I'm like, But I said, only call me if there's something really important. I said, because this trip is about. And I was like. And I was like, and I need it for myself. And. But I just started journaling, like when thoughts would come to my mind, I was people. We were walking, but I would just kind of text and be like, okay, well, why do I feel that way? And I just started to unravel that I've been holding a lot of anger in. And I just was like. And it has seeped into my work. It has seeped into how I engage with. With people and especially those who have harmed me. And so I just. That when I say I needed that vacation, like, I needed it because it showed me who I want to be in the future. And it showed me that I am still this funky onion with so many layers, right? Needing to pull back but being okay. That there are those layers that are messed up and embracing them, right? And not having to apologize for, like, this is me. This is who I am. I'm a work in progress. And I'm trying. That's the best that I can give out. And I've been really transparent in that. And so I. I feel like. Try not to get emotional.
00:42:50
Curl your toes.
00:42:52
I. I feel like I have just been in a place to. Where, better yet, I had a friend. Her name is April Ash. She is the executive director of the Black Caucus. I don't know if you know her, but you. You want to get her on your podcast. Like Aprilistebaum.com backslash. Amazing. And we were talking.
00:43:16
Oh, that's the updated 2025 version. I love it.
00:43:20
So we were talking a couple years ago and we were just reflecting and I said, well, friend, what do you want to do in the future? She was like, I just want to die empty. And I was like, what? I said, well, that's a little, you know, outlandish. What, you mean you want to die empty? She said, hattie, if you think about it, there's so many untapped talent, untapped, you know, dreams and people and future selves that people didn't have an opportunity to. To engage in. And she was like, everything that I do, she was like, I just want to pour it out. I want to be good, and I want to. I don't want to be six feet under thinking about, like, shoulda, woulda, couldas, or wishing or having people think like, oh, April was this, or April was that. And I thought about that, and I was like, wow. So when I came back, I said, you know what? I, too, want to be that way. I, too, want to. I don't want to go any longer with hate in my heart, with rage, anxiety. I don't. You know, yes, I got traumas, but, like, putting those traumas to the. To the side and continuing to extend grace, which is really hard for me. But I just realized that in order for me to be the vessel that I aspire to be, I got to do the work. But I also have to understand my truth and how I want to move forward. And so I. I take what she said very, very wholeheartedly. And I just encourage people to really think about, like, how. How do you want to start showing up, like, as of today? What does that look like for you? Yeah, it's a real serious question.
00:45:03
When are you gonna write that book, how to Die Empty?
00:45:07
I need to read it.
00:45:08
And that's like, this is touching my soul. This is amazing.
00:45:12
Heather, we'll send you the bill later. Just so you know, we're gonna have to agree on that.
00:45:16
Thank you so much for this.
00:45:16
Agree on the hourly rate. So thank you. We'll be back to you.
00:45:20
Yep. I love it.
00:45:25
I want to transition a little bit, if we can, because I want to make sure that you know how to. You and I talked about this leading up to conference and what we were trying to really leave people with. Conference with when they left, because we know it's particularly in the nonprofit space right now. It's. It's a hard. It's a hard place to be in a. In a leadership role and in a frontline staff position role, particularly right now. You know, it's today that we're recording. It is November 6th. We're still in a state budget impasse. So you've got that we're a federal shutdown. Right. There's lots of layers of complication of leading a nonprofit or a business right now in general. And so I'm going to transition a little bit to some. Some good things. We've talked a lot about the heart, and we've talked about the difficulty and the space that it has in us and trying to heal and transform from that. So I want to ask you, when you think about the really good moments, the moments that have defined. I want this. This is where I'm going, or this is why I do this, or just the moments that you think about where you're just like, this is.
00:46:31
Why.
00:46:34
Do you have a moment where there's been a leader, a colleague that you're just like this moment or a moment that you've experienced where it's just been you. Right. And it's been. You're the person on the stage or the person in the room.
00:46:45
Yeah. So I will say it was last week at your conference.
00:46:57
What? Get out of here.
00:46:58
Yeah. When I did the let me hold your trauma bags session, because before I started putting that presentation together, I was, like, overwhelmed. I was excited about doing it because I'm like, I've been experiencing a lot of trauma this year, so this is the perfect presentation. And then when I came back from vacation and I had this, you know, moment of reflection, I was like. I was like, this is a very heavy topic that I'm about to engage in. But what solidified it for me was just the hearts that were in the room and the moment of freedom that I felt afterwards. In the moment of freedom that I saw on a lot of people in that room, like, there would be people that. That came in, they would stick their head in the session and come back out. Next minute, you know, they were in the back. And that's the moment where I realized, like, this is. This is what I've been called to do. Like, I've been in denial for so long, and even when people sing praises and all these things to me, I don't know how to accept them. Because for so long, I felt like I was never good enough. Like, I felt like, well, you just saying that just to say it because you want to be nice. Like, I get it, you know, Woo, woo, woo. But it wasn't until last week where I was like, wow, this feels so good. And I was like, it felt good to be in a space with people who were so willing to be open and so willing to just reset their heart and their mind. And that's why, you know, with MEND Solutions, it's like mending hearts and shifting Mindsets. I was like, this is. This is the mission of. Of my calling, of my. Of my heart, of. Of why I do what I do. And, like, I. I also get upset about it because I know that sometimes it's only for a moment, and I want this moment to last for eternity, but I know that that is not what it's about either. But it wasn't until last week I was just like, this is what Patty looks like, right? And me cutting off my locks, me being free, me saying what I want to say and not being reprimanded afterwards, or this label being attached to me. I just felt so free and me giving because I had that freedom. I was able to give that permission for everybody in that room to be free and knowing that even if they couldn't, like, I was still there to hold that for them. And so it was just last week, I was like, yo, I am the sugar honey iced tea in this thing. Like, what. What are we doing?
00:49:47
Come on.
00:49:49
I mean, you got. And you got carrot cake. So, you know, like, I will just tell you. We'll talk about the carrot cake.
00:49:56
Okay? Because the carrot cake was bomb. It was so good.
00:49:58
I mean, you know, I told our. I told the conference person who's running the. The venue. I was like. Like, we were wrapping up on. On Thursday. And I was like, you know, I can ask you a favor. I have a friend coming who's going to be wrapping up our conference, and she really loves your carrot cake. So if you could, like. I noticed there was no carrot cake at lunch, but if you could hook me up with some carrot cake to give her, I would be forever in your. In your debt. So that's how I worked my way into some carrot cake for you.
00:50:21
That's leaders leading right there.
00:50:24
Look, you take care of your. You take care.
00:50:27
My husband said, yeah, best. He said, Beck must really love you. I was like, honey, it's my girl.
00:50:33
You didn't get the memo.
00:50:35
I was like, did you not know I got three pieces of carrot cake? I was like, okay, my guy, you only get one pick and choose which one you want, because the rest are mine. It was so good.
00:50:44
Yeah, but I. I think you're. I think to your point, though, about just that. That moment. There's been a couple times that I've presented and you walk away and you're like, you know, it's not. It's okay. Like, I'm okay with it. And there were. You know, you get the comments back. You're like, okay, yeah. Audience resonated. With the audience. But then you have those presentations and I've probably had three in the last two years that I can really think, like, oh, that hit. Like, I know that hit. There's nothing about the moment of the story that you wove in, you know, like. And I, you know, look, I, I, I do practice. I know that I don't. I talk about not liking a script, but I do practice. But just sometimes, right. It just depends on the right pump up. You don't have the right pump up. Something throws you off on the way there. Somebody cuts you off in traffic. You start thinking about something. You get in your head. The weather's weird, your underwear is too tight. Whatever, Whatever it is, seriously. Or it's on backwards, you don't realize it. Then you go to the bathroom right before you present. You're like, I'm not changing it now.
00:51:43
Crisscross is going to make.
00:51:44
Don't think I know you've had this experience. Don't tell me you haven't. Everybody does.
00:51:49
Up until the underwear part, I think you had me.
00:51:51
You've never, you've never gone to the bathroom, been like, oh, my underwear's on inside out. That's why I'm off.
00:51:56
No.
00:51:57
All right.
00:51:58
I think it's just you.
00:51:59
All right, maybe it's just me. That's fine.
00:52:02
Sorry.
00:52:03
I can, I can openly admit that. Anyway.
00:52:07
That's leadership in action.
00:52:08
I mean, I'm done. If nothing else, I am really honest and transparent about things that most people shouldn't be. But anyway, you're welcome, audience. I currently have my underwear on the right side and facing the right direction anyway. But you have those moments where you leave a presentation, you're like, yes, this hit. And you know it hit. And you know you can feel a difference in the, in the presentation. I was walking through New Orleans, it was like two years ago, and I'd been there for a national conference, and I was walking down the street. I had met a friend for breakfast who also just happened to be in New Orleans at the same time. And this woman passes me and I hear Beck. And I'm like, nobody else's name Beck. And I like, turn. And she's like, I thought that was you. And I was like, hi. She's like, I'm sure you don't remember me, but I was at your blah, blah, blah at this conference. And I just have to tell you, I've. Your presentation changed me and that it's again, to my point earlier, like, we give so much of ourselves and for me Even if I just resonate with one person in the room, I connect with that one person. That's the moment that I know, okay, this was worth it. Because, you know, there's some speaking engagements you get paid for, there are others that you don't. And it's always a challenge of. Right. Like, am I going to do this? Am I going to give up part of myself and not get paid for it? Like, I should at least get paid for giving a pile of trauma and reliving it as I'm telling you about it, which is why we make sure to pay our folks, to be clear. But that moment that, you know, you connected with somebody and then the blessing of them telling you right later, in a moment that you didn't even know you needed to hear it, that. That's, I think, some of the strongest moments that I've. I've had. For sure.
00:53:53
Absolutely. I totally agree with that.
00:53:56
I had this young, young guy who came up to me after a presentation. It was at a. A leadership program for kids all over the state. It was like 10th and 11th graders and really, really rural Pennsylvania. And I, you know, talked a lot about who I was. And this guy walks up to me afterwards, you know, adorable, from rural Pennsylvania. I think he was wearing his dad's suit, God bless him, you know, and he came up to me and he stuck out his hand. He's like, Mr. Moore, I just have to tell you, while your story didn't resonate with me, I know that it resonated with people at the table. And so I really appreciate you sharing your story today. And I just wanted to say thank you.
00:54:35
Wow.
00:54:36
I was like, okay, 10th grader.
00:54:39
Yeah.
00:54:40
Yeah.
00:54:41
I don't know who you are, but I hope you're president one day. Like, it was just one of those moments where, like, him coming up to say it right was a moment I will absolutely never forget in a million years.
00:54:54
I love that for you.
00:54:56
Hold it in my heart.
00:54:58
Yeah. That helps us keep going. That helps us remember our why.
00:55:02
Yeah.
00:55:03
Why are we getting on stage? Why are we opening up our chests for, you know, the world? You know, for our exposure? We get exposed, and we're. We're sharing our stories. I mean, I. I think that's it. I felt the same way for so long, you know, as a gay girl growing up, you know, worthiness was not part of the equation. We. We all know this on this call. And so it took a long time to receive. Just like you said, Hattie, like, you're just saying that you're Just. You're just saying that. So. A few years ago, I committed to saying two words. They're very simple. You've said them before. And after the second word, I stop. Those two words are thank you and then I stop. I don't need to say thank you so much. Oh, I'm sure you've seen speakers everywhere. You know, I don't need to dim my light.
00:55:59
It's so hard though. It's so hard.
00:56:01
Is it? It is until it's not. I know it is until it's not. But it's like a muscle, you gotta flex.
00:56:06
No, I know. I talk about it all the time, right. Like you got. Once you recognize you have need to have a habit, you gotta practice the habit. That's how you form new habits.
00:56:14
Absolutely.
00:56:15
But accepting the praise is difficult. It's really hard.
00:56:21
Yeah. It's just. So it's the self-talk, right? It's like it's not the, the Beck or the Hattie or the Heather. Now is that that inner child, right.
00:56:33
12 year old version of me?
00:56:35
That 12 year old version that was not nice to ourselves?
00:56:39
Yep.
00:56:40
And so like when you hear people, you think it's a motive behind that. Well, why are you telling me thank you. What you want?
00:56:46
Yeah, yeah.
00:56:47
Like, what do you mean?
00:56:48
What are you about to do to me?
00:56:50
Right. And I'm like, how, how often do we come into situations like that? Right. And so like that takes a. It's like you have to unlearn that type of behavior. And it's hard because. Right. Because you try to accept people for true face value. Right. Try to get people to benefit of the doubt, even when that little person in the back of your mind is like, be careful. Right. So you're trying to be open and honest and being humble, being a humble leader. Right. You want people to see that. So it's like all these things that are coming, you're just like. So it's hard for you to embrace because it's also hard for you to trust. It might be hard for you to lead. And then it's like that inner part of you that you really want to show, you're like, is everybody ready for that part? So it was like you're trying to find this balancing act of how much can I give so I won't get hurt or how much do I need to hold in? So you don't know all about me so you won't weaponize me against me.
00:57:54
Yeah, well, when you haven't experienced unconditional love, Right? Right. Because love always Came with this thing, like, you can share this part of yourself and I'll love you, but the minute that I know this part, I'm out. And that's not. And that's not unconditional love. Right. And so I think that. And I. And I mean unconditional love, you know, in friendship, in family, in all the different ways. I think it. When you have to hold back a part of yourself for some reason. I don't care what it is. It could be that you like olives.
00:58:29
I love olives, by the way.
00:58:30
I do, too.
00:58:31
I do not.
00:58:31
I love what will still be. Not all versions. Well, most aloes, anyway. But if you've experienced that, that. That then impacts. Right. The interaction, the way that you show up. Can I really. You say that, but if I see your body language shift when I say this, I know better because I've experienced the shift.
00:58:57
And you know what's really crazy, though? For me, being a woman of color, there's just certain things I'm just not able to get rid of.
00:59:07
I know, and I. And I'm so glad that you say that out loud to the audience, because I think, you know, I'm. I'm saying that with a piece of privilege in my pocket now, that I've not always had. And you know, the way that I describe privilege for people who are going to react when I say that word, to be clear is for me, the way that I define it is if you've never. If you've been on a road trip ever, and you haven't had to think about stopping somewhere to use a bathroom, you have privilege.
00:59:40
If you've ever been on a road trip but kept driving and praying that you don't go and eat because you know that the next town over is not, as in receiving, accommodating to those who are different, that's privilege.
00:59:56
Or fear of getting stopped by a police officer or while riding because you know that something's expired and how are they gonna treat you and all the things. Yes, absolutely.
01:00:08
Yeah. And I tell people all the time, it's like there were moments where I wish I could take the color of my skin off and just walk in a room. Right? Because I know that that is the first thing that people see. And sometimes I'm intentional about not telling people that I'm a woman of color. Now, you could probably hear from my tone or maybe, you know, googled me or whatever, but I try to be with certain things. I try to be intentional because I'm like, when you see me, I Want to see if you want to have the same energy that you did when we were over the phone. All right. Or that you did when somebody said, hey, I know this person. She's really good. Boom, boom, boom. And so there have been moments to where people have left me on the phone, but as soon as I walk in the room, they're like, oh, I didn't. I didn't know that you were. I was like, what? Short, beautiful, you know, so, like, I had one lady, she argued me down. She was like, I. With the name, like, howdy. I really thought that you were older, white woman. I laughed. I was like, no, my love, I'm not. I said, I turned on the light this morning. I was like, still black. She was just. She was so perplexed, and she was like, are you sure that you're Hattie? And so thank God somebody was standing right beside me. They were like, what other Hattie do you know that works here? Right. But that. You know. And she's like, I can't believe that you had to prove who you were. And I said, well, thank you for standing in the gap for me. I said, I didn't have to prove. I was like, you know, sometimes people make these assumptions of who they want to see, and then when they don't, you know what I mean? They're like, oh, they're taken back. But I really had to embrace that and not let that be a hindrance and not let that be a space to where just because you uncomfortable with who I am right on the outside, I don't have no control over that. That's a you problem. That's not a me problem. And so. But I did. I didn't learn that till I got in my late 30s. Yeah.
01:02:21
Oh, I don't think you get the confidence or the. You know, the. The. You can't. As a kid, you know, your 20s, I mean, you're still so young.
01:02:30
Yeah.
01:02:31
Still figuring it out. Yeah.
01:02:32
Hattie, we've talked about this before. I've told you about the. Well, there's two experiences that happen fairly often to me. One, depending on how dark I am at any given point, the number of people who'll be like, what are you? Not a question you should ask anybody. To be clear, I'm a human. I don't know. What do you. How do you want me to answer that question? What do you mean? Are you talking about my gender? Are you talking about my sexuality? Are you talking about what you. You perceive my racer. Ethnicity to be like? What are you talking. What Define your question for me, friend, because I don't. I'm confused about your question. That always, the first few times it started to happen, I was just like, I don't. I can't even imagine how I reacted. I wish I could watch that back or the other thing that will happen is. And it's almost the same exact words every time. Beck, I love your presentation. The way you talked about equity and inclusion. I just, like, I listened because I don't use those words in the beginning of anything I talk about until the very end. And I leaned in and I listened, and you just.
01:03:41
You.
01:03:41
I really liked you. I really like you. And then you told me who you were, and I still like you. And it's like they're surprised. Right.
01:03:54
And it's.
01:03:55
It's said with a moment of surprise. And I know that you know in that statement that there is bias and a lot of complexity of what that person is trying to work through. And most of me says, well, you know what? At the very least, hopefully I made this person think a little bit differently. But then this other part of me is still annoyed about the fact that. What about what you just said? I want you to say back and say out. Say back out loud what you just said and listen to what you just said. I'm going to be talking to me. Talk to yourself. If somebody said this to you, how would you feel about it?
01:04:31
You'd be appalled.
01:04:33
Right.
01:04:35
But that. Right. And so I. I said to somebody else, you know, having lived in this version of myself and having lived in another version of myself, myself, it's such an interesting experience to watch the way the world interacts and watch people interact with the world when they do or do not know that I'm transgender, and to see the way that someone will interact with a woman, and then when that woman walks away, what they say, Yeah. I mean, it's look interesting. It's an interesting experience. If they don't. If they don't, they don't know what they don't know what they don't know. And they, you know, I'm just one of the guys, which I am. But I also have a different sensitivity and thoughtfulness about how I treat all people then. So it's an interesting thing to watch and sort of sit and straddle different worlds.
01:05:31
Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like that's a privilege that you have and that you can be able to have such an insight on that. We don't. Right. But also, being the co. Conspirator for those individuals on Both spectrums, right? And so after we got home, my husband, he's a processor. And so when I think that he's not listening, he really is. And so we were talking, he was like. He's like, so your. Your friend back? I was like, yeah. He was like, was that the person you was telling me about that you met in Harrisburg? And I was like, well, babe, I know a lot of people in Harrisburg. And he was just like, no. But you said that there was an event that happened and you met this guy.
01:06:22
This is our origin story. This is our origin story. Sorry to interrupt, Hattie.
01:06:27
This is how we met. And he was like. You said that you met him. He was like, you're very transparent. Because I told him. I was like. I was like. He was cute. I was like, hey, how you doing? You smell good. What's up? In my mind, I'm like, who can I connect this person with in my friend group? That's what was going through my mind when I saw Beck. And then we got on stage or whatever and started talking. And then it was Beck, this other white guy, and then there was me. And when they would ask those questions, me and Beck would kind of play off of each other. And then Beck shared his story, and I was just like, oh, you went there, Okay. I said, go ahead and clock that tea. We finna do it. For real? For real? I was like, yeah. I said, did we just become best friends? I was like, yep. And so I went back home and I shared that story with my husband in full circle. It was a very difficult conversation because he was like, why are you such a huge advocate for this community? I said, well, if you think about it, they're very similar to us. You know what I mean? I'm like, a lot of intersectionalities, a lot of civil rights and things are being taken away was developed all because of this being a marginalized group. And last week, he was just like, yo. He was like. He said, I remember that story. And he was like, he seems like a really good guy. And I just sat there and I was like. I said, did I tell you how much I love you? And he was like, why do you say that? I said, because the conversations that we used to have before, right, about people who are different or experiencing things. I was like, you were so. Just like, no, that's not what this is, is A can't do B or C. And I was like, the growth that I see in you. I was like, the growth that you did and just embracing him. I said, not just because of his position as I put. Because he's my friend. And I was like, I thank you for that. I said, because it takes a lot for him to show up. Just like it takes a lot for me and for you to show up in spaces. And he was like, well, you know what babies are you really? He said, you've been challenging me to think differently and to be embracing. He said, but also, like, doesn't matter what lifestyle or decision you make. He's like, I still gotta love you regardless. And he was like, I learned that through you. And he was like, as long as, you know, Beck treats you right. He was like, we're good. He's like, but I will pull up. I was like, you don't have to worry about Beck. I said, he's good. But just in knowing that sometimes it takes for us to have this human centered heart, right? It doesn't take us long to get it. But for people who do not engage in this work and have a different mindset, different beliefs, system and whatever, I was, I thought we were never going to get to this point. But when we had that conversation, he remembered the story. I felt so relieved because I was like, okay, good. So now we got another advocate. You know what I mean? So sometimes it just takes. It just takes one. But, like, how you show up, you know what I mean? Your authenticity is something that we is needed. And it's something that I always commend you for because I tell you all the time how your team loves you. I've never seen that.
01:10:04
Thank you.
01:10:05
And I'm like, I think that they would love you before and after, but I've never seen a team go above and beyond and the willingness to go above and beyond the sacrifice that they do for you, not just as their leader, but just as Beck and how you show up. So I think even in this whole conversation, it's like, we are who we are, right? And our purpose and what we give to people, it matters. And so the things that you do for CAAP, the things that you do for your community, for your other agencies, it matters. And people see that. And even for those who don't know you, they see the genuineness in you, right? And that's what is so inspirational. Because those are some of the things, the characteristics. I was like, when I have a team and I become CEO, I want my people to love me the same way that Beck's team loves him.
01:10:58
Well, I, I appreciate that so much. I. You know, this conference year, we've always, We've always had good conferences to be clear, regardless of what was going on with the team, complications, things we were struggling with, but this year in particular, the way that the team showed up for one another, it was just. We have a wrap up following the event and I try not to keep them too long because I know they're tired, they've been busting their butts. You know, they've been there a day before. So while our conference was proper is Wednesday and Thursday, the team's been there since Sunday. And it's sort of like we've got 10 events kind of packed into one. We've got a pre conference, we've got a pre pre conference, we've got dinners, we've got award ceremonies, we have things for our network, we have things outside of our network. And we are all in a really very close environment when we don't spend very much time together outside of this little plastic box that we live in most days. And we did our wrap up meeting and I think every single person in that room cried just for appreciation for one another and the way that people took care of each other. Like there was nobody that didn't give 150%, 200% of their person, spirit, mind, body at that event. And honestly, like, I. All day long, I just. It's a rare thing to be with so many remarkable people. And I think somebody asked me while we were at conference, like, beck, I don't know how you create this team. And I was like, honestly, like, it's just. It's just caring for people. I mean, that's it. Like, it's not. It's both that simple and that complicated. You give space for everybody. Everybody gets an opportunity. It's just. It doesn't have to be that hard. And anybody who I think for a minute is gonna not be able to do that. You don't get a place here. You don't get a place. I'm not willing to sacrifice that.
01:13:08
You do it all so well. I have. Every. Every time I'm in you all's presence, I feel like I'm family. Like, I. I feel so. Just overwhelmed and like I. I just love seeing them work. But I think the moment for me is when Keisha prayed for me before I went and presented. I was like, my girl, Keisha, honey. I was like, girl, you just prayed my entire soul out my body. I was like, I need to pray. Bring you with me all the time. But it was just something. So to some people it was small, but just like for me, I needed that. And now she just came in with me. Yeah. So. But that is, you know, attitude, reflect, leadership. That's you.
01:13:55
Well, and I think. And I think the other thing is, I know we're. We're, like, way over our typical time, and I just don't want to end the conversation, because when you're spending time with friends, you don't want to end it.
01:14:06
True.
01:14:07
But for me, religion is. It's. It's hard. Right? I mean, it's. It's triggering. I've said on a prior podcast with Dr. Shannon, you know, we're covering Southern Baptist, you know, like, lots of other things that have happened, and I'm not going to go into that in this episode. We'll be here all day. But sometimes those types of conversation, people will say, like, well, there's no place for that in the workplace. And I. And I don't. I don't disagree. Right. Like, we can't. My day cannot be filled with all day Jesus, all day long. Right. Like, that's not. That's not the space. But for someone to talk about their religion, for me, if that's their safe place, if that's their sanctity, it's not about, like, I can set my trigger aside. Right. This is not about me. This is about someone's just saying their piece. They're talking about their experience. They're talking about, you know, I've had to spend time with the Lord to handle the things that I'm dealing with right now. I don't want her to feel uncomfortable sharing that with me if that's her truth. Speak your truth, my friend. And I think sometimes, again, like, right to the point earlier, we just get so. We get so wrapped up and. Right. Like, I don't know. We just get so wrapped up in the world.
01:15:26
Yes.
01:15:26
And it's just like, Keisha's just sharing a piece of herself. She knows that the two of you have that in common. She knows that it's okay, and she knows that it's okay to have that conversation with you. And if you hadn't been comfortable, I know you'd have said no, right? Because you'd have established the boundary and should have been okay.
01:15:42
That's all right. Yeah. I was so. I was so grateful, you know what I mean? Because she was just like, can I pray with you? And I'm like. I said, you want to do it over here? She was like, no, we going to do it right here. And I was like, well, bet. Give me your hand. Amen. Hallelujah. And then even there was a few people that like, gathered around us and you know, Southern Baptist, we stretch our hands out to thee, right? And so when I, when I saw that, I was just like, that was another moment for me. I'm like, okay, you know what I mean? So every time I'm around you, your organization, I just, y' all have given me permission to be me. And so with that and just you and now this connection with Heather, like, I can truly say, like, this has been the year for me of true, genuine relationships. And that, that means more to me than anything in the world, that that's what motivates me to be a leader. Because what is being, what has been poured into me this year alone, I am confident in pouring it back into other people.
01:16:57
I love that.
01:16:57
Thank you for that.
01:17:00
You know, I will say to you the same thing I said to you when I was doing your intro for the closing, which is that you create a space for people Even in a 45 minute hour long presentation, that people feel the authenticity in you saying, like, we're just going to create a space together. And they bring something about the way you say it. There's something about just who you are that makes people feel safe. And that's why your presentations are so effective, because people, people genuinely feel that.
01:17:32
Hattie, thank you. I really cry.
01:17:36
Thank you.
01:17:37
Echo, echo, echo that. Yes, over.
01:17:42
So for our listeners, Hattie, any piece of advice that you want to give to anyone who's listening about if you do nothing else as a leader, what's the thing?
01:17:56
Love yourself, love yourselves, and just give yourself grace, right? That's the best that you can do. And remember that tomorrow is a new day. You can't focus on what happened that day or the day before. But just know, like, if you want to do better, you can. You may not be able to change, you know, everybody else, but as long as you change in a positive light, right, and just show up and be true to yourself. If you having a bad day, say, yo, I ain't doing it right now, right? If you need to go take a walk in the park, go do that, right? But you especially now, we have to prioritize our mental health, our self worth, our value, our position, who we are, our calling. But most importantly, you got to protect your piece because that is so priceless. And people are out here trying to snatch it away because they don't have it. So the best advice I can give is like, snatch your piece back. Snatch it back. You cannot give that to anybody. That belongs to you. And as long as you have that peace within and you have a good community around you that understands the value of your peace and what you bring. I won't say that everything else is cake, but you'll be able to navigate life a little bit better. So protect your peace at all costs. So that means you got to make some tough decisions. If that means you gotta cut some people off, respectfully, if that means you just gotta be in a place of like, you know what, that's not my ministry. I'm gonna let you have that one, though, and that's cool and move on. But, like, you gotta have to protect your peace.
01:19:51
Yeah, yeah, no, I appreciate that so much. And if you want a good piece of carrot cake and you happen to be at our conference, you know, I may have a good piece of carrot cake for you.
01:20:00
Yeah.
01:20:00
Hattie's not saying protect your piece of carrot cake.
01:20:02
No, no.
01:20:04
Give me all the carrot cake. I want it all.
01:20:06
She protects her piece. Cat of carrot cake.
01:20:09
So, Hattie, a couple, a couple shameless plugs. Because I want to make sure to, to give you these shout outs. I know if people are trying to find you, go to MENDsolutionsllc.org you can also contact us. We're happy to connect you to Hattie.
01:20:22
Absolutely.
01:20:23
And we'll always make sure that if somebody asks me, you know, who's somebody that can speak about these things, I'm always going to give my girl Hattie a shout out and connect. Anything else you want to share about things that you do, Hattie, why somebody should connect with you other than, you know, you're just a phenomenal human and they should get to know you. But any shameless, any shameless shout outs.
01:20:42
You want to do, well, you know, I am establishing my first magazine called the Lead up. And so it's on transformational leadership. It is lead beyond the title Transform the Culture. Beck is, he's going to be a featured author in our magazine. I'm so grateful for that. Because of my experience over these past 12 years, I was like, we got to start having these raw and unapologetic conversations about what it means to be a leader. So look forward to that. Spring 2026. You can always catch me on LinkedIn, but I also am reestablishing my YouTube channels called the Lead up, where we're going to be having more engaging conversations such as this. But if anybody is looking for any type of leadership modules or speaking engagements or even they just want to phone a friend, I'm your girl. So that's it.
01:21:46
You are that girl, Hattie.
01:21:48
Thank you I appreciate it.
01:21:50
I also want to give a shout out. One last thing is that she has helped us to create some courses in CAAP learn our learning management system. And so if you're curious to learn about more about those, check those out if you're a CAAP member. If not, you should be a CAAP member. And you need to email us at info@thecap.org and we're happy to set you up with some opportunities to learn from some of our guests, like Hattie and others constantly developing new content. But Hattie, again, thank you, my friend. I always love talking to you. We're going to have you back. We're going to have some more conversations. Heather, just so you know, Hattie and Ellen and I might be working on a project together. I'm not going to tell any say anything else about that.
01:22:24
I know. I saw the LinkedIn post and I'm like, thanks, but that's cool. That's cool.
01:22:29
Gonna make some things happen. Just saying.
I can't wait. Wait. I cannot wait to see it. Can't wait.
01:22:36
All right, Hattie, love you, girl. We'll see you again soon. Heather, always good to see you. To our listeners. Thank you for being here.
01:22:45
See you next time. Bye bye. CAAP out, y’all
01:22:51
Thank you for being a part of this episode of the Thinking CAAP. Check the show notes for resources and links to other episodes, and don't forget to subscribe and follow to be notified when new episodes are released. If you have any Community Action questions you’d like Beck or one of our local experts to answer in a future episode, please email your questions to info@thecaap.org, and use the subject line, the ThinkingCAAP.
If you have any Community Action questions you’d like Beck or one of our local experts to answer in a future episode, please email your questions about Community Action to info@thecaap.org — subject line: Thinking CAAP.