Surf the Waves: How to Master Imposter Syndrome
Beck Moore and Heather Holloway sit down with Dr. Vanessa Shannon, a certified mental performance consultant who’s coached everyone from college athletes to MLB players. Together, they unpack the psychology behind imposter syndrome…why even high performers doubt themselves, and how to master that doubt instead of running from it.
Vanessa shares science-backed strategies for grounding, confidence, and emotional regulation, and offers practical ways for mission-driven professionals to stay calm and centered under pressure. From surfing life’s waves to coloring as mindfulness, this episode is full of grounded wisdom, laughter, and reminders that confidence isn’t about perfection, it’s about presence.
Find Dr. Vanessa Shannon on:
Instagram: @drheadstrong
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drheadstrong/
Email: VanessaRShannon@gmail.com
Website: www.resistancetodisruption.com
Thinking CAAP Talking Points
[00:00] - Introduction to Dr. Vanessa Shannon and Mental Performance Consulting
Beck Moore and Heather Holloway introduce Dr. Vanessa Shannon, highlighting her expertise as a certified mental performance consultant with 20 years of experience in elite sports and performance psychology.
They set the stage for a discussion on optimizing human potential and mental performance.
[04:00] - Early Career and Personal Background of Dr. Shannon
Dr. Shannon shares her first job working in her father’s pediatric office and reflects on early workplace experiences.
She also discusses how her upbringing and sports involvement fueled her curiosity about peak performance and psychological skills.
[06:00] - Journey into Performance Psychology and Influences
Vanessa explains her path to performance psychology, inspired by collegiate athletics and early mentorship from a sports psychologist connected to her family.
She recounts pivotal moments that led her to pursue a career focused on mental conditioning and athletic coaching.
[09:30] - Defining the Role of a Mental Performance Consultant
Vanessa explains her role in helping individuals and organizations maximize human potential by training psychological skills.
She emphasizes the importance of mental and emotional training alongside physical and technical abilities, especially in high-stress, high-consequence environments like human services and sports.
[11:45] - Challenges of Sustaining Peak Performance in Stressful Roles
Beck Moore and Vanessa discuss the difficulties nonprofit and human services professionals face, including exhaustion and maintaining resilience.
Vanessa highlights that mental performance training is critical to managing ongoing stress and optimizing performance without formal psychological.
[13:12] - Understanding Imposter Syndrome: A Simple Definition and Personal Experiences
Dr. Shannon defines imposter syndrome as the belief that success is due to external factors rather than personal competence, paired with the fear of being exposed.
Both Vanessa and Beck Moore share personal stories illustrating common feelings of self-doubt during public speaking and professional situations.
[16:01] - Vanessa’s Journey with Imposter Syndrome Across Career Stages
Vanessa discusses her evolving experience with imposter syndrome from academia to consulting and major league baseball, emphasizing how self-doubt persisted despite achievements.
She highlights normalizing these feelings as a key strategy to manage ongoing doubts in high-profile environments.
[19:52] - The Physical and Psychological Symptoms of Imposter Syndrome
Vanessa explains how imposter syndrome triggers the nervous system’s threat response, causing symptoms like sweaty palms, dry mouth, and shaky hands.
Psychologically, it often leads to withdrawal and minimizing oneself rather than building confidence, showing how deeply the syndrome can affect behavior.
[22:05] - Imposter Syndrome in Mission-Driven Professionals and Human Services
The conversation explores how imposter syndrome intensifies for professionals in human services due to high stakes and responsibility over others’ outcomes.
Vanessa and Beck Moore discuss added pressures like funding and board expectations that amplify these feelings in leadership roles.
[24:20] - Practical Strategies to Manage Imposter Syndrome: Grounding and Present Moment Awareness
Vanessa shares approachable techniques to combat imposter syndrome, focusing on awareness, and acceptance.
[26:43] - Overcoming Imposter Syndrome Through Present Moment Awareness and Positive Self-Talk
Beck Moore and Dr. Shannon discuss battling imposter syndrome by grounding oneself in the present moment and using affirmations like "why not you" to replace limiting beliefs with empowering possibilities, helping to foster confidence and reduce self-doubt.
[28:20] - The Dual Nature of Imposter Syndrome in Leadership and Performance
The conversation explores how imposter syndrome can limit potential through persistent self-doubt. They explore if it also simultaneously drives individuals to improve.
Emphasis is placed on the importance of balancing confidence with humility and focusing on controlling what is within one’s scope.
[31:25] - Creating Vulnerable, Supportive Work Environments to Normalize Self-Doubt
Dr. Shannon highlights how leaders can reduce imposter syndrome by openly sharing their own experiences with self-doubt.
Promoting authenticity and vulnerability fosters a culture where team members feel safe acknowledging their challenges.
[33:13] - Embracing the Waves: Managing Uncertainty with Mindfulness and Perspective
The hosts reflect on the quote "You can’t stop the waves, but you can learn to surf."
They illustrate the importance of focusing on what can be controlled amidst uncertainty, grounding oneself, and maintaining perspective during difficult times.
[36:25] - Using Coloring Books and Creativity as Mindfulness Tools for Anxiety Reduction
Dr. Shannon shares a story about introducing coloring books to athletes as a creative mindfulness practice.
She explains how engaging the creative brain helps reduce anxiety and supports self.
[39:53] - Shifting Perspectives Through Creative Mindfulness Practices
Beck Moore and Dr. Shannon discuss the joy of creative outlets like coloring and mindful activities that help ground and support mental health.
They emphasize the deeper impact of supporting causes such as black-owned businesses and arts funding.
[41:06] - Mindfulness Techniques for Everyday Life and Driving
Dr. Shannon shares her mindfulness practices, including mindful walking, coloring, and mindful driving.
She highlights how turning off distractions, like music, during short drives can help anchor attention and reduce mental noise, despite challenges with ADHD and earworms.
[44:24] - Solitary Activities and Nature as Tools for Renewal
Guests explore solitary, grounding activities such as motorcycle riding, fly fishing, gardening, and home renovation.
These activities provide rhythm, focus, and visible progress, helping to refill emotional capacity and support mental wellness.
[49:11] - Building Confidence by Mastering Doubt and Self-Talk
Dr. Shannon offers insight on confidence, explaining it as mastering doubt rather than its absence.
Using the metaphor of two wolves representing confidence and doubt, she stresses the importance of regulating self-talk to amplify confidence and reduce self-doubt.
[52:10] - Navigating Professional Identity Without Over-Assertion
Beck Moore discusses the challenge some professionals face in asserting their expertise to fit in.
She advises a more balanced approach to entering new environments, cautioning against over-assertion as it can be counterproductive in establishing authentic confidence and belonging.
[53:13] - The Power of Self-Awareness and Emotional Intelligence
Dr. Shannon emphasizes the importance of self-awareness as a foundation for emotional intelligence.
She advises that confidence comes from demonstrating strengths through actions rather than words, advocating for trusting oneself and others in professional and personal interactions.
[54:23] - Redefining Confidence: Mastery Over Doubt
The conversation highlights a powerful quote by Dr. Shannon: "Confidence is not the absence of self-doubt, but the mastery of doubt."
This mindset encourages embracing uncertainty while maintaining self-assurance through resilience and emotional strength.
[55:11] - Building the "Doubt Destroyer" Identity
Dr. Shannon playfully introduces the concept of a "Doubt Destroyer" superhero, blending humor with empowerment.
This metaphor underscores the idea of overcoming self-doubt creatively, framing confidence as an active and ongoing process.
[56:19] - Gratitude and Acknowledgment in Human Services
Dr. Shannon expresses deep gratitude for the often thankless work done by human services professionals.
She recognizes their dedication and the vital role agencies play in supporting communities, underscoring the importance of appreciation in sustaining meaningful work.
[56:44] - Connecting with Dr. Vanessa Shannon and Resources
Listeners are encouraged to connect with Dr. Shannon via LinkedIn, Instagram (@Dr.Headstrong), or her website www.resistancetodisruption.com.
Episode 23 Transcript
00:00:00
What's up, everybody? Welcome to the thinking CAAP. I'm Beck Moore, CEO of Community Action association of Pennsylvania. With me is my fellow fearless leader, Heather Holloway. Holloway Media Services.
00:00:09
Heather, what's up? Oh my gosh, you're so sweet. Everything is up, nothing's down. I'm so glad to be here. Thank you so much.
00:00:16
Of course. So we are so excited to have our Next guest today, Dr. Vanessa Shannon, who I got to meet a few months ago at our executive leadership meeting. So we were just chatting before we started our recording this this afternoon, but going to refer to you as Vanessa because that's how I've gotten to know you. It's how some of our executive leaders have gotten to know you. So, so I acknowledge that you have done all of the work to get the title of doctor, but because we know each other, I'm going to call you Vanessa.
00:00:43
And I just want to acknowledge that out loud in case any of our listeners thinks that I'm just being a big old jerk, which hopefully they wouldn't think. Never. I can't imagine. But so thank you so much for being here. We're happy to have you.
00:00:54
I'm excited to be here. Thanks for the invitation. Absolutely. So Heather, before we officially get started, can you share with our listeners a little bit about Vanessa and her work? Yeah, absolutely.
00:01:06
I'd love to. Dr. Vanessa Shannon is a certified mental performance consultant with 20 years of experience. Though you would never see it, she looks like she's 21. Before transitioning into private consulting, she held full time positions as a mental conditioning coach and at IMG Academy. The director of Mental performance for the University of Louisville athletic department.
00:01:26
Go Cardinals.
00:01:30
Yeah. And the director of Mental performance and major league CAAP mental performance coach for the Cincinnati Reds. Dr. Shannon earned a PhD in education with a specialization in performance psychology from the University of Tennessee Govalls and takes a science backed psychoeducational approach to her work with clients. She's been invited to speak to teams, organizations and universities across North America, throughout Europe and in Africa on topics from motivation, confidence and resilience to building and sustaining culture. Applying her experience working in elite level performance and using evidence based strategies, Dr. Vanessa Shannon teaches individuals and organizations how to minimize disruption, maximize potential and work and optimize performance, which is what we're here to talk about.
00:02:25
So here we are. I had the great opportunity to meet Vanessa at a healthcare conference in New Orleans last spring. And we'll just say that, you know, got the opportunity to listen to her speak on that stage and knew that There was an opportunity to bring her to our executive leaders who were just feeling our feeling, I think. And if I'm putting words in people's mouths, call me out via email, please, folks. But I think what I really have heard is just this exhaustion right now within the nonprofit space and so brought her to come and speak and had a really great opportunity to just learn more about her background.
00:02:59
And so I know that hopefully people will leave here the same way that they left that executive session, just feeling rejuvenated. No pressure at all, Vanessa, but was a great session and we had remarkable feedback. But appreciate you being. Being back with us again. And I'm just curious, before we jump into the thick of things, an amazing bio.
00:03:17
I think we've talked about this. I hate having my bio read. I think you hate having your bio read as well.
00:03:23
But if Heather were to read it every time, I'd be okay. Look, that's why, you know, we're. We. We are co hosts here, because I think it, you know, the energy she brings to certain things that I just could never bring. But I think this speaks to kind of the topic of today, right.
00:03:38
Which is imposter syndrome. And I don't. I know for me, I really hate this, my bio being read, because it just feels. I don't know, it just. I feel uncomfortable.
00:03:49
We've done all these things. We've earned all these things, but for whatever reason, it just makes me feel uncomfortable. But we're going to dig into that a little bit. But I do have a very first, very, very first question for you officially, is what was your very first job? This is one of my favorite ice baker questions.
00:04:01
Very, very first job. Just curious.
00:04:06
Job being defined as something I was paid to do, not volunteer. Yeah, it could be, like, paid, you know, like just under the table, you know, something like that. But, yeah, I think paid. My first job was actually my dad's office. He was a pediatrician for over 45 years.
00:04:24
By the time he retired and I worked in his office, I filed files. Everyone remembers before we had electronic files and digital files. We had hard files. So I did a lot of filing. And then for a period of time, I put charts in front of rooms so that doctors would know, you know, what patient they were about to walk into.
00:04:49
But one of my dad's partners claimed that I messed that job up one day, screamed at me, and I told my dad I would stay in the back and file and never come out again. So that was my first job. Yeah. And I didn't get paid enough to get yelled at. Yeah.
00:05:03
I mean, we talk about workplace PTSD on prior episodes of. Of the Thinking CAAP, so that fits really well with all of the different things that some of us have experienced. I also worked in my mom's office for a little while. One of my favorite things to do when I really didn't have much to do was to take. You remember, like, the notes that you would leave on somebody's desk when somebody called?
00:05:22
Oh, yes, the memo notes. Yeah. We're all aging ourselves right now, but I would, like, white out to make it sound funnier than what it was and, like, would photocopy it and then, like, leave those on people's desks. I never got yell that, but I did. You know, that's amazing.
00:05:36
And I photocopied a lot and filed a lot of files, so I feel. You got to find the joy. Yeah. So what I'd love to just start with, really officially, is can you tell us a little bit about your journey and what really drew you into this role of performance? Performance management?
00:05:52
Performance psychology. Yeah. You know, I've always been curious about peak performance and what allows some people to thrive under pressure and. And while others struggle even when their skill or quote, unquote, talent level are equal. And I think that curiosity started even growing up as a junior athlete for me and then continued to develop as I was a collegiate athlete, where I saw firsthand sometimes, myself being the data point, how much psychological skills could really impact performance.
00:06:28
And I was very lucky. My father, who I mentioned earlier as a pediatrician, really understood adolescent development. And. And one of his close friends happened to be a psychologist who. Who also played for the Harlem Globetrotters at one point in his career.
00:06:45
And so he started bringing me to lunch with Dr. Pugh, and I just thought we were going to lunch with Dr. Pugh, but really he was my sports psychologist. And so then a pivotal moment for me in terms of pursuing performance psychology as a career happened in college, where I was taking a coaching baseball class. That is a true story. There is a class called Coaching Baseball. It was an elective.
00:07:12
And a gentleman named Dr. Jack Len, who did some work with the Atlanta Braves, came and spoke to my class. And that was the first time I realized, like, wow, that could be a job. So that's kind of how I came to it. Look, I took archery and mountain biking in college. So if that can be a class, I, you know, coaching baseball should be a class.
00:07:32
Oh, my gosh, I wish I would have met you 20 years ago, because coaching baseball would have Been amazing. I have so many questions. Number one, what did you play? I was going to ask this question too. Yeah.
00:07:43
In college, I played volleyball. Growing up, I played everything. I did gymnastics, I swam, I played soccer and volleyball at a competitive level in high school. I had the opportunity to play both in college. Decided to play volleyball.
00:07:58
Nice. Heather, did you play soft. You play softball? Heather, is that we played. Yeah, I played softball.
00:08:02
I played. I played basketball for one year but had a bad experience with a coach, so I quit. Yeah. Played the alley ball. You know what I'm saying?
00:08:10
Right. Perfecting my fade away jumper. But I would tell you the Harlem group Globetrotters taught me how to spin a basketball on my finger as I. Feel like they did a lot of young basketball players. Yeah, yeah.
00:08:26
Yeah. Of our generation. Right. Yeah. I still, I still think they're out there doing the thing.
00:08:30
They are. I saw them. I saw them right before COVID I think. And it was, I had always wanted to see them. It was very cool.
00:08:36
I, you know, I grew up with a basketball family. I played basketball. Not well. Was just because I was tall. And I also had a terrible experience with a coach.
00:08:45
You know, basically had to run laps until we threw up. And you didn't stop unless you had to throw up. There was buckets around the gym and you know, a terrible experience. That's encouraging. I know, right?
00:08:56
Yeah. Let's do, let's do this. Go team. Let's throw up together. The team that throw ups throws up together, stays together.
00:09:03
So I'm gonna make a bumper sticker. That we're gonna make tease some T. Shirts very soon we throw up championships. Okay, what we have gone. We're making T shirts for the podcast.
00:09:16
If you're coming to the conference. If this is, if this recording drops before conference, uh, you know, maybe this will be appear on one of our T shirts. Stay tuned at our CAAP store. Coming near you soon. So help us understand a little bit about kind of what, what your job means in the day to day.
00:09:33
Like plain language. What does a mental performance consultant really do on the day to day? I'm sure people are like, what is this? I've never heard of this. A hundred percent.
00:09:43
Yeah. You know, I get asked this question a lot and I feel like I've given 20 different answers and typically people are still staring at me blankly. So as explain it. If any of the listeners go, you know what? I think I have a really great elevator pitch for what she does, please email me and let me know.
00:10:02
Most recently, I think what I realized is I help individuals and organizations maximize the potential of human CAAPital. Right. And how I do that is optimal performance in any environment, whether it's sports business. Human services always requires four things, right? Some type of physical CAAPacity, some type of technical skills, some tactical understanding and then psychological skills.
00:10:27
And where most people devote plenty of energy to physical CAAPacity and technical skills and tactical understanding, most people don't actually know how to train up their psychological skills. If we use human service professionals as an example, most human service professionals have little to no formal training in what's actually the skills required to meet the demands of the performance environment. They have technical skills out the wazoo. Is that an expression I can use? Absolutely.
00:10:59
Oh, yeah, yeah. No, no. Wazoo. Wazoo is an official. Wazoo is an official.
00:11:05
Fantastic word. It's also probably going to appear on a T shirt. I was just going to say. And now it's on the T shirt. But they haven't been trained to manage the mental and emotional demands and high stress, high consequence environments.
00:11:16
So that's where individuals like myself come in. My role is to help people intentionally, systematically train up or level up their psychological skill using evidence based tools and strategies. Yeah, I mean, I think what you're, what you're speaking to is part of the reason why this, why this podcast was born. You know, our purpose is really to help serve the professionals within community action. Bringing speakers like yourself, it's part of why we brought you right to our convening and it's part of why, you know, when I think about the training and technical assistance that CAAP provides, what you're talking about is I think, a cornerstone of what, you know, we're really trying to think about on a day to day because it's, they have hard jobs, you know, and I think understanding some things about like what fills your cup, how to continue to fill your cup, how do you prepare when your cup's not filled and there is no end in sight to when the cup's going to get filled?
00:12:07
How do I keep going? It's, it's a hard, it's a hard thing to figure out for sure. It's funny as a team and Heather, I know we've sort of talked about this at different times. I am somebody who thrives under pressure. I don't want a script.
00:12:22
If you give me a script, I'm going to panic. I'm going to be terrible. Put me on the fly on a stage, I'm going to feel so much better. I say that procrastination is a little bit of my superpower it makes me better. I don't know what that says about me.
00:12:36
You can unbox that later, but we'll just say that out loud. I know if Erica's listening, my director of operations, it stresses her out because she's like, Beck, where's the script? Where's the run a show? And I'm like, I don't want to run a show. Give me some bullet points or some, some points to, to hit in my, my talk and I'll be good.
00:12:52
But if you give me a script, I'm just gonna like, get really uncomfortable.
00:12:57
Yeah, I happen to love scripts. I love scripts. I love to go live too. So I think, I think we need to come back just, just a wee bit. For those following at home, they may not know what imposter syndrome is.
00:13:12
So I was wondering, Vanessa, could you, could you give us, you know, like the, the fifth graders definition of imposter syndrome? How can we understand this? Yeah, it's sort of this constant belief that our success is due to factors outside of ourselves rather than our own competence. Right. I love that.
00:13:31
I love that definition. I. Sorry, I don't want to interrupt, but I love that definition so much. It's perfect. I've never heard anybody describe it that way.
00:13:39
Yeah. And then the attached fear that eventually will kind of be found out. Yes. Like, yes. Is responsible for my.
00:13:46
And eventually the whole world's gonna figure that out. Yes. Yes, that's it. I was at an event and there was someone who really high position. I'm not going to say who this person was because I don't want to call them out.
00:13:59
I've not asked their permission. But really high up position in a large, a large company. And I was asked to speak on this panel with this person. They were the moderator. And I said afterwards, I was like, did I hit the mark?
00:14:12
Was, was this what you were really looking for? And she said, yes, absolutely. I said, good. Because I find sometimes standing in front, in front of people just sort of like thinking to myself as I'm speaking, it's sort of an out of body experience. Like, I don't know what I'm talking about.
00:14:25
I don't know why anyone's listening. I don't know the words that are coming out. Somehow I'm, I'm shining this on pretty good. Hopefully nobody asks a hard question because I don't know what I'm saying. Hopefully it's all okay.
00:14:38
Yes. I have loss of time during speaking engagements. Like just, it's at the end and I'm like, I Have no clue if I just said what I was supposed to say. So I get that very much. Well, and I don't know about Heather, you or Shannon or Vanessa, you, but I also tend to, I will tell people, right?
00:14:57
Like I don't care who you are. When you're standing on a stage, everybody gets a little bit nervous. That's, that's regular. That's normal, right? Whatever normal is.
00:15:06
But that's, that's normal for me. Like, I get really sweaty. I get a little bit, I get a little shaky. I hate a hand mic because I know that I'm shaking. And as much as I will try to calm myself down and do all the deep breathing exercises ahead of time, it just, that's how my stress manifests itself.
00:15:21
So I can only wear a suit like once or twice because it's smelly. After that, it's over. Mine is. I get dry mouth and I already have allergies and take a bunch of antihistamines anyway, so it's not helpful. So I'm usually up there like chugging water and I try and kind of over hydrate ahead of time.
00:15:43
But then we have the problem of like now in the middle of my talk, I need to. Sorry, can we take a five minute break so I can go to the restroom? Yes, yes, yes. Suddenly all the moisture has been sucked out of the room and has been placed and I need to use the bath. Yeah, I know.
00:16:01
With imposter. Imposter syndrome for me, by the way. I didn't even know what that imposter I didn't even know existed. Imposter syndrome. I didn't know the, the, the, the, the, the words.
00:16:13
I didn't understand what it was as a first generation entrepreneur, not knowing what I don't know. A lot of imposter syndrome came up and it all. And it was like 2020 when I learned imposter syndrome, what that meant. And then I went off on a course to understand what this is so that I can conquer it. Because I would show up on sales calls and be this meek.
00:16:39
You know me, we're best friends now. Vanessa, you know me. We've been talking for 20 minutes, right? I'd be a shell of myself. I'd be like.
00:16:48
Because I think the other person's like, oh, you never ran a business before? Also, you're calling yourself a marketing expert, are you? You know, and I'm, I have all these things in my head like, oh, I'm. But you know, I'm just now getting into this. So I'm telling myself all these stories and it just kept me small.
00:17:08
So I'm curious, Vanessa, with your, you know, consulting and working for the mlb, what kind of imposter syndrome did you face? Oh man, I feel like I, I face imposter syndrome. On the Weekly I am now a solopreneur for the first time in my career. But you know, I spent the first part of my career in academia and I think any faculty member, any professor that stands up in front of a classroom at some point leaves the class and goes, did they believe anything I said or was any of it accurate? You know, you go back to your office and you grab textbooks and you're like, that's what the textbook said, right?
00:17:45
So, so I experienced it in that space. And then after eight years of doing that, I transitioned into consulting. And so now rather than teaching people how to do the consulting, I was doing the consulting. And, and yeah, same type of thing, right? I'm, I'm going like, what am I doing here?
00:18:04
Nobody's going to believe me. I'm, you know, I was working at IMG Academy with high schoolers. I'm like, they can't connect to me. I'm in my 30s and then got to Louisville and was like, oh, I've really fooled everyone. It's worked, right?
00:18:21
Like it's fully worked. I fooled everyone. I've gotten what I've wanted, I'm in the job I thought I wanted, in Division 1 athletics, high level collegiate athletics. And then you're sitting there paranoid and kind of paralyzed because you're going, wow, somebody finds out now it's going to be really bad. It might happen on tv, you know, on the sideline or something of a game.
00:18:46
So then fast forward. After seven years, I decided to walk myself into a major league clubhouse. And I would say, I always say I had a cup of coffee in Major league baseball. That's what you say to people have short lived careers and major league Baseball. So, you know, but, but the first time I walked into the clubhouse at the Reds, I told my bosses there, I said, I'm not going to say anything to anyone.
00:19:10
I'm just going to walk into their space and kind of allow connections to happen because it's so overwhelming. And you think to yourself like, what are you doing here? How did you even get here? And who's going to figure out that you don't belong? So I've certainly experienced imposter syndrome throughout my career and I think I've learned how to normalize it because it is normal.
00:19:32
The doubt is normal. And that helps me fend it off pretty persistently. What are some of the ways? I think, you know, I've shared a couple experiences that I've had in terms of how it sort of manifests with me. But what are the other ways in which you see people manifest this?
00:19:46
Both in sort of the psychological side. Right. The mental side and the physical side.
00:19:52
Yeah. You know, so we could do kind of a whole podcast on nervous system and understanding our nervous system and how it, it responds to different environments. But it depends on the individual, of course, how their sympathetic nervous system is going to perceive a threat and when we think we don't have the resources to meet the demands of the environment. That's exactly how we experience that. We experience that as a threat.
00:20:17
We want to experience it as a challenge. That's how we overcome it. But, but viscerally, initially we experience it as a threat. So for some people, it's sweaty palms, shaky hands, the pit in the stomach that occurs, which is actually a real physiological thing that's occurring because of what your body is doing to prepare itself for battle in that moment. As I mentioned, for me it's dry mouth.
00:20:42
For other people, it can even. They can feel like they've got blurry vision. All sorts of things can happen. The typical racing heart, shortness of breath, et cetera. From a psychological perspective or a mental perspective, what starts to happen is sort of protection mode of, okay, what do I do here?
00:21:05
And one would think that, okay, maybe the response is to kind of like double down on your strengths and just focus on your resources. But typically that's not what happens. Typically in the face of it, while it's a cross occurring imposter syndrome, sort of, as Heather alluded to, just makes us kind of withdraw. Right. Like I'm going to make myself small and less noticeable and then it's less likely that people are going to find me out.
00:21:33
Yeah. Too much information for all the listeners. But nervous bathroom breaks.
00:21:40
Yeah, that belly. It happens. Yeah. You know, like, I gotta go, I gotta go. That's right.
00:21:47
Yeah, yeah. What? You know, Vanessa, I'm so curious about this. You spent a lot, a lot of time in sports, but I saw from your website you don't just speak to athletes, you speak to healthcare professionals and a whole bunch more teachers, parents. So I'm curious for the, you know, the mission driven professionals listening.
00:22:05
Today we talked, you know, for sports that might come up when you go to bat, right, or catch a ball or be the quarterback or be the coach, but for a mission Driven, professional, somebody in social work. How do you think imposter syndrome shows up for them in their day to day? Oh, I mean, I think it shows up in many ways, right. It can show up in conversations, it can show up in decision making. It can show up at times when any time that there is a high stake, high consequence, right, we're going to start to worry that we don't have the resources to meet the demands of the situation.
00:22:44
Ironically, the demands are really determined by us more than anyone else. But I think any of those situations, and when you take human services professionals and individuals who are in the service of others, I think the imposter syndrome only intensifies because the failure is you're responsible for it if it happens, but it affects other people. And so as a consequence, I think it just magnifies and intensifies people's experience of imposter syndrome. Yeah, yeah. I think with our, I will say with our executive directors, you know, and I, I feel this from a different perspective because we don't do direct client services, but I'm worried about my team, I'm worried about my team's interaction with clients, I'm worried about clients.
00:23:31
And if I fail in any one of those levels, it all unravels. And then you add the board pressure and the funding pressures in there and there's all of these types of pressures. And if you're already experiencing that, you can't handle, just you feel this un, you know, insurmountable mountain of worry and. Right. You know, when I acknowledge right now, for a lot of people in human services space, because of the nature of funding challenges, this, this is just, it's even magnified more.
00:23:58
And so I think what, as we kind of talk, right. What are some of the strategies? And when you came to our executive leadership meeting, you talked about some of these. What are some of the strategies that come to mind for folks that are managing these feelings? Maybe particularly before a big moment, big presentation, maybe it's a big funding meeting, maybe it's a board meeting, maybe it's a team meeting.
00:24:20
I've got to deliver some unfortunate news to my team. Whatever the scenario is, what are some of those tricks that you might suggest to folks? I think, you know, I want to start by saying a lot of these are going to sound simple. And I think sometimes when we hear simple solutions, we assume like, well, that can't be it because we're talking about something that feels so uncomfortable for us. We think it must be some massive overhaul that has to happen.
00:24:49
But the Truth is, it starts with simply acknowledging what's happening. Right. It starts with your willingness to kind of have the awareness, okay, I'm feeling some kind of way right now that is normal given the circumstances. Anyone in my situation would, would feel that way. So there's kind of an acknowledgement and then an acceptment, acceptance and then an adjustment.
00:25:14
Right. And the adjustment I think is, is addressing the core, the foundational kind of piece of it, which is your nervous system. So I think starting by grounding yourself and I, and I will kind of just leave it at that because that looks different for different people. For some people that is using a noting strategy. Right.
00:25:37
I'm going to acknowledge three things I see, two things I hear, one thing I feel for some people that's using some box breathing. So that could be a three second inhale, a three second hold, a three second exhale, and a three second hold. And so being able to ground yourself, return yourself to the present moment. There was a Chinese philosopher, Lao Tzu, and he said something I'm going to paraphrase here, so don't put quotes around this, but basically said if you're angry or regretting, you're in, you know, in the, in the past. If you're anxious or worried, you're in the future.
00:26:17
If you're at peace, you're in the present. So I think so much of it begins with grounding yourself in the present moment. When you're in Imposter Syndrome, you may have to continue to fight that battle and return to the present moment. Return to the present moment and over and over. So what can happen when we use those grounding techniques is people assume they're not working because they get, keep getting pulled into the future in the worry or they keep getting pushed into the past.
00:26:43
And the one time they made a mistake and the one piece of evidence they have to support that they're not good enough or skilled enough or whatever it is. So remembering it's the battle of continually returning to the present moment, grounding yourself back in the present moment.
00:27:01
You're speaking my language. I was, we were taking a walk the other day and I kept sighing and my wife's like, you know, why, why are you saying. I was like, it's good for you? I don't know who told me, but somebody, I think it was you, Vanessa. I was like dying releases.
00:27:14
Yeah, like, you know, releases all this energy. Like it lets go of things that. So I'm just, I'm trying to, just trying to let it all go. Thanks. Yeah, I, I'M sitting right now as we're recording this.
00:27:27
And every day I have a grounding mat below me and I don't have socks on. In the winter, I will put socks on, but I have my bare feet on this grounding mat. I, I gave a grounding mat to every team member because before we get on a call, we must, you know, let's, let's center ourselves, let's take a couple deep breaths. I know something that worked for me as I was over overcoming this imposter syndrome. And yes, I still have little bits of it that show up.
00:27:53
But, but something that I did in the gym on the treadmill is look in the mirror and say to myself over and over again until I believed it. Three words, why not you? And so that's one technique. Listen, you're believing the stories of limitation. What if you believe the stories of possibility?
00:28:20
So then my next question, Vanessa, would be true or false? Imposter syndrome is bad. So that's a tricky question, right, because it's a bit of a double edged sword. On one hand, those limiting beliefs that we're talking about that are persistent when it comes to imposter syndrome are limiting us. They're exactly what they sound like, and they are preventing us from maximizing our potential and ultimately optimizing our performance.
00:28:51
However, you know, I think there's a lot of people who are driven kind of by that doubt to continue to shore up their resources. And so certainly we can get into a space where if we are overly confident or unnecessarily confident and certain in our beliefs, we can get into a lot of trouble. Because at the end of the day, when we think about how much control we actually have of the outcome, the demand, the situation, it's really very little. Right. So.
00:29:24
So if we get into a space where we're like, oh, I'm good. It's like, are you? Because there's still some uncertainty that we're gonna have to battle at some point. Point. So I think we want to be in a space where we recognize we don't control everything.
00:29:40
And then we also simultaneously want to be in a space where we recognize that we should be confident and have belief in our ability to control what we can control. Yeah. Yes. I mean, I think we coach through a lot of things and talk about a lot of management coaching at CAAP. And so I think we, you know, scope of control, there's only so many things you can.
00:30:03
Can deal with. I know. Like when we do walkthroughs after our large events, I'll say the team. Right. Like there's only so many things that we're within the scope of our control.
00:30:11
We can't, you know, we did our best to plan the menu in a way that we knew that people would like. But if the food was bad, the cook had a bad day, like that's, that we can't, that's not within the scope of our control. Can we change the venue? Sure. But there's scope of control.
00:30:24
And then I think this healthy balance of ego and vulnerability as a leader is so important. And for me, to your point, I will say that I am somebody. You tell me I can't do something, I'm going to work a thousand times harder to prove you wrong. Because that's, that's just the way I'm built. But I'm always going to be humble and thoughtful about it.
00:30:48
And I think with leadership, we talk about this a lot. We've had a lot of speakers come and talk about this. That vulnerability that you have to show as a leader. If you're driven completely by ego, there's no, there's no room for vulnerability then. And then the culture that you create.
00:31:02
So I want to ask a follow up question with respect to culture, then what do you think? Or how do you think? I guess can supervisors, leaders, managers, however you want to categorize folks, create environments that help reduce imposter syndrome within teams? What's core to that? I think two kind of core pieces.
00:31:25
One is what you were speaking to Beck, which is the idea of leaders being vulnerable and taking ownership of their experiences with things. Right. So we want to normalize a conversation around self doubt. Well, if I'm a leader and I'm at the front of the room and I'm sitting there going, you that's normal for you guys. It's normal.
00:31:44
And acting like it's not normal for me, then are you actually going to ever want to acknowledge that it's normal for you? So I think it starts with leaders recognizing that you can remain credible while being vulnerable. There definitely was a long time where in leadership we saw leaders refusing to be vulnerable because they thought that would affect their credibility. But what people want is authenticity. So as a leader, if you're going to approach your team with a conversation about normalizing self doubt, you better be willing to begin it by talking about a time that you experience self doubt.
00:32:24
So right there you're putting yourself in the conversation, you're co creating that discussion, you're not leading the discussion, you're becoming part of the discussion. Yeah, 1,000%. So, Vanessa, I know you live in Kentucky and as a former Kentucky person and recovering Southern Baptist, I'm going to say hallelujah. Amen. Feel that all day long.
00:32:45
You know, took us to church. All right, I can't. I think we got another T shirt slogan. I know, but the vulnerability. Yeah.
00:32:52
As soon as she said it, I was like, oh, I think that's T shirt number three. Collect the whole set when you get to conference. I love on your website again. Resistancetodestruction.com resistancetodestruction.com's by John Cabat Zinn. You can't stop the waves, but you can learn to serve.
00:33:13
I love that so much. I also love his book. Wherever you go, there you are. Huge book for me. Yeah.
00:33:20
So tell me about this quote. Yeah, that quote is really my personal mantra or affirmation. I should probably pay him royalties daily every time I ground myself with that quote. I grew up in Southern California. I am not a proficient surfer, but I grew up around the ocean.
00:33:37
And that quote was shared with me actually when I was in the midst of my academic career by one of my colleagues, Dr. Ed Etzel. And I was balancing being a faculty member and teaching and also doing some service work with some of the teams at West Virginia and having a moment. My mom had been diagnosed with dementia. I was in a near fatal car accident. My dad was six months later.
00:34:01
I was just a bit of a mess. And he always kind of did this thing where he moved his fingers like this. He's still alive, but he's retired now. And he kind of. I could tell he was coming up with something and then he just pointed at his wall and it was actually this quote.
00:34:18
And he said, I feel like now would be a good time to surf. Right. So it's been really relevant for me, I think, in terms of understanding my CAAPacity and recognizing what is in my scope of control and what is external of it and being able to always ground myself in that idea of I cannot stop the challeng and the waves. I can only control what I can control. Yeah, I would.
00:34:48
There was a. My therapist. I remember years ago I was going to therapy dealing with a really hard situation. And I remember my therapist saying, you know, when you're on a boat and you feel seasick, what do you do? I was like, I don't know.
00:34:57
You stand up, you don't sit down. I know that you watch. He said, you watch the horizon because you can't control the waves. And so when you're trying to control the Environment, which you can't do. What is it?
00:35:09
What does it feel like? It feels worse. You're trying to control the environment. Stop trying to control the environment. All you can do is keep your eye on the horizon and know what you're trying to accomplish.
00:35:17
And you sort of gotta roll with the waves. Right? So same. Same concept, different way of saying it. But I, you know, I'd seen that quote before when.
00:35:24
When we were researching a little bit more about you, potentially bringing you, you know, over to our conference before. But, you know, that's what I. That's what I thought of when. The moment that I read that quote was that moment with that therapist. And it has always stuck with me.
00:35:38
I love that articulation of it, too, is that the horizon stays steady. Right. So just kind of keep your eyes on the horizon. When I was at the University of Louisville, I travel with teams, and they. People would see me on planes with, you know, Cardinal Bird on, and they'd say, are you a coach?
00:35:54
And I'd say, I am. And they'd say, what do you, you know, what do you coach? And I'd say, I'm a surf coach. And they look at me super confused. And it would either end the conversation or inspire the conversation to.
00:36:06
To talk about that idea of, you know, I. People how to surf, how to ride those waves. Yeah. I mean, that's your elevator pitch. You just came.
00:36:14
Just got it. Yeah, true. I want to go back to something that you shared with a little bit at conference. There was a story about coloring books. Do you remember that story?
00:36:25
Would you mind sharing that with. With. With our. Our audience? Because I think it's.
00:36:28
And it's inspired something that we're going to be doing at our conference. And I. I believe, you know, listeners hold me accountable. But I'm fairly certain that this episode's dropping right as people are coming off of our conference. And so there's some. There's a swag item that we are giving people, that we gave people that was inspired by the story.
00:36:45
Amazing. Yeah. So I.
00:36:50
The short of this story is I was trying to engage our players and being more mindful because, you know, as you can imagine, if you want to develop psychological skills, a lot of the tools and strategies are based on self awareness and self regulation. So if I know what I'm thinking, I can change what I'm thinking. If I know how I'm feeling, I can regulate how I'm feeling. And so the foundation of that is really being in the present moment as much as you can. So that you can acknowledge it as quickly as possible.
00:37:19
You have that self awareness. So, you know, there's meditation apps, mindfulness training you can do. Those can be fantastic for people. But I wanted to find something that might be a little bit more creative. And so I went and bought a bunch of coloring books and colored pencils.
00:37:35
And I walked into the clubhouse and I walked past our sports medicine staff, and they said, what do you have? And I told them, and they kind of laughed and giggled. And I walked past our strength and conditioning staff and they said, what do you have? And I told them, and they kind of laughed and giggled. And then I went to my office.
00:37:50
And it's a true story that by the end of the day, I had to kick about five players out of my office and tell them they had to go somewhere, somewhere else to do their coloring. And I had two guys come by really quietly and ask for coloring books and colored pencils that they wanted to put in their bag. And I had one player actually come by and ask me, said, I know I can get it myself, but would you get me a Disney princess coloring book? Because I would love to practice mindfulness with my daughter. And this is a totally true story.
00:38:21
I can't name names, but it's a totally true story. And yeah. So coloring in art therapy research, specifically coloring geometric shapes, mandalas, things like that, has been shown to reduce feelings of anxiety. And so the belief is that when we shift to the creative side of our brain and we sort of detach from the analytical side of our brain, we're down regulating our nervous system. And it's allowing us an opportunity to recover, to kind of engage our parasympathetic nervous system.
00:38:55
Yeah. And I. This is so for our listeners who were at our conference, you know, in our swag bags, everybody got a coloring book and. And coloring and colored pencils so that while you're at the conference, you know, you can, if you want to listen to the speaker, sure hope you do. You know, we're paying some folks to be there, so we hope you listen, but also, like, just to take the time.
00:39:15
Right. We want to make sure that our conference is a place that people can rejuvenate, they can feel, you know, reconnected to the work. And so this story has inspired us to do that. And I'm really excited to be able to. We do.
00:39:27
We do give a good swag better bag at our conference, and I'm happy to be able to provide those, but it's something that I've spent some time doing in the last year in particular, dealing with some hard situations. It's a really detailed mandala coloring book. Color with my son, color with my daughter, or just color by myself at night before I go to bed. It just helps to disconnect a little bit and breathe some life back into me.
00:39:53
I really think we're onto something here, kids, because all we did was shift the horizon. The coloring book now became the horizon. Right. We're focusing. We're focusing on it.
00:40:03
I'm looking right now at my Nightmare Before Christmas coloring book that I have. It was a word search and then you could color the. And, and, and I just, I had a beautiful experience. Experience finding the colored pencils. Like the whole thing was just pure joy for me, you know, supporting a pencil company out in California.
00:40:23
I think they're black owned and they give funds to schools and provide money for art programs. So it goes even deeper than that. So, Beck, thanks for providing that for the amazing superheroes at conference. Yeah, no one thinks to the team. Yes.
00:40:39
I love it. By the way, we live in the great state of Pennsylvania. That is the snack CAAPital of the world. And Crayola, right? Crayola.
00:40:48
Crayola. If you're listening, feel free to call us. We're going to be calling you to help sponsor this podcast. That's right. We'll take you.
00:40:55
So, Vanessa, what do you, what do you do to sort of refill your cup? What are the things? I mean, I see you have color for our listeners. You know, she just shared her colored pencils. But anything that you do beyond, I'm going to assume coloring.
00:41:06
But what else do you do? I do mindfulness training. I've talked about my struggles with that in the past when I use it with my clients. If I listen to a meditation and they say something that I feel like is really powerful, I typically get distracted by. In my mindfulness practice, I'm gonna write that down.
00:41:26
So. So I use it somewhat sparingly. I, I do color. I do a lot of mindful walking, just like out in our yard. I love to be outside.
00:41:41
And so just the opportunity to just go out onto our back deck and just kind of notice. Listen, observe. We have a bunch of high trees in our neighbor's yard behind us and there's a lot of wildlife there, lots of sounds to listen to, lots of things to see. So I do that as well. And then I try actually to practice.
00:42:04
It's a little bit counterproductive, but kind of mindful driving. I was in a, as I mentioned earlier, really serious car accident about 15 years ago. And I love music, but I get what they call ear worms. So basically, there's a soundtrack to my life. There's music happening at all times, which can be really disruptive to me.
00:42:27
And I found that if I would turn everything off in the car and just drive instead, then I typically wasn't as disrupted by that soundtrack that was occurring in my mind. And so it gives me an opportunity to sort of continue to return to the present moment in my car and notice, listen, observe, and be more mindful and pay attention to driving. It's interesting. I would not suggest that, by the way, for extremely long trips. I once mentioned this to an athlete who then tried it for three hours straight from the top driving home to see his parents and was effectively crazy at the end of it.
00:43:07
So. Yeah. So short periods of time, short driving opportunities, good opportunity to practice mindfulness. Yeah, I have a hard time. I have a hard time with complete quiet in the car.
00:43:18
I just. It's. I feel like it's like a reverse earworm. I don't know how to describe it. It's like my brain starts just going, going, going, and somehow the ADHD is calmed by, you know, it's like somebody's, like, it's okay.
00:43:33
Quiets my brain, you know, if I listen to the music. But same thing, though, with music, it's still. There's, like, you know, things that it takes you back to, etc. And Heather, just so you know, Vanessa shared some of the. The pictures of her accident and some of the stories that she went through in her recovery and what a remarkable story that she has.
00:43:56
Yeah, it was a wild experience. So I appreciate you. You acknowledging the remarkableness of it. Yeah, Yeah, I would. You know, I was.
00:44:05
I was sitting here. I don't know the story yet. I'm. I'm excited to learn, but I just. I'm looking at you.
00:44:12
You would never know unless you told somebody. So I am just so grateful for our bodies and how they can come back, and I'm grateful that that. That happened for you, too. So that's. It's incredible.
00:44:24
Thank you. I. For me, usually my. Like, outside of coloring, I will ride my motorcycle. There's something about the air and feeling the air that just helps to ground me.
00:44:36
Fishing, I think, because it's a. And these are all solitary activities, I've. I've realized. And I'm not somebody who typically really likes to necessarily be alone, but there's something in the activity and the kind of silence of the activity. Even though Riding a motorcycle is not quiet.
00:44:52
It's just a constant rumble. Right. They kind of hear. And I don't really listen to music when I, when I ride. Fishing, occasionally video games because, you know, I know how this is going to bother you, but you know, I like to blow some stuff up once in a while.
00:45:05
Don't bother me, don't bother me. It's a choice, you know, or, or listening to music, coloring. Reading is hard lately. Reading is really hard. It's something that I, you know, I'm surrounded by books in my office, but reading is sometimes really hard for me anymore because I just can't, I can't quiet my brain while I'm reading.
00:45:21
Just. I've actually done the same thing recently. I've. I've attempted to remove myself from my typical environment because I'm like, maybe I just need to get out of the house. But I've noticed as lovely as it makes the vibe, if you go to like a coffee shop, they're playing music and so I can't read because I'm hearing other people's conversations and, and I'm hearing the music and, and then I feel like I'm reading the page over and over again.
00:45:47
So that's a challenge for me. You mentioned fishing. If my brother listens to this, he will giggle a little bit because I am a amateur fly fisher woman. And by amateur I mean he has to do everything for me, including taking the fish off of the hook. But I love fly fishing.
00:46:06
I've. I've been probably five times in my life and it's so soothing for me. 100% renews my cup, my CAAPacity. I think there's something, you're right about the silence, but also just kind of the rhythm of it and the, the kind of low, low demand, high competency, simple tasks similar to coping. Right.
00:46:31
Yeah. So, yeah, I'm a big fan of fishing. I, My wife took me fly fishing for the first time. I really wanted to try it and I think it's, it's an art form for sure. We went on a raft, so it was, it was not the easiest experience.
00:46:49
I think just like standing. I would, I will try it again. I would totally try it again. We had a great time. We ended up switching to a spinner rod for fisher, fisher folks out there that are listening, you know, less complicated, but still had a great time.
00:47:00
Anything fishing related, I'm, I'm in for. So I love that you're fly fishing. That's great. It's. And I think it's just, it's a beautiful thing to watch.
00:47:08
It really is. Yeah. I don't, I mean, I'm. My brother is definitely more competent, but it is really cool to watch. My, Our dad used to fly fish, and so I think that's sort of where the foundational interest came from.
00:47:24
But I've been in waders, waded in the river, fly fishing. I've been on a boat, I've been on a bank. So there's lots of ways to do it. It's cool. Yeah.
00:47:37
The other thing, and I think on a podcast episode with Megan Shreve, our board chair, we also talked about this. Heather. There's something about doing activities like home renovation projects. And I think the reason for that is because you see the progress of the thing. So a lot of times our work, particularly human services space, is that you don't necessarily feel the change that you're creating.
00:47:57
And so when you're doing a home rental project, like I'm redoing cabinets right now, I'm stripping down all the old paint back to the original hardwood restaining. You know, I've gone through more sandpaper than any human needs to. But you physically see the change in the thing that you are doing. And there's something sort of comforting and grounding about that as well. Very.
00:48:15
Listen, we've, we've, we've been taught by the great philosopher Mr. Miyagi. Wax on, wax off. That's where it's at, kids. That's where it's at. I.
00:48:27
To ground myself. I got in the garden. I'm middle aged now. This is what we do. Welcome to the plant phase of your life, friend.
00:48:35
This is it. And I love it. I adore every part of it. Seeing something grow and nurturing it is phenomenal. Feed the birds, I feed the bunnies.
00:48:44
I take it all in. I love nature. I also. And then at the gym too. That's where I, I get in the flow and I zone out too.
00:48:51
And I ground myself. So I have a meditation practice. I do a whole thing. I teach people on this stuff. So I love all this.
00:48:58
It's just horizons, guys. Find your horizon. Gardening, fly fishing, whatever it is. So one more question that I have. I know we're coming up here on time.
00:49:11
I want to kind of get us back to human services professionals a little bit. What's the one piece of advice that you wish every human services professional could hear when it comes to really, I think confidence and self belief. I know we've talked about a lot. We've talked about ways to ground Ourselves, all these things. But is there anything in particular that you really want our listeners to take away it from this, from this discussion?
00:49:35
I. I think the one piece of advice, if I had to stick to one, would be to remember that confidence is not the absence of doubt, it's the mastery of it. Right.
00:49:47
Say it again. Right. Yes. I love that. And I think ultimately that is, you know, when I talk about confidence and I teach confidence and I talk about overcoming imposter syndrome, there are so many missteps that we make when it comes to confidence.
00:50:03
I think the first misstep we make is the assumption that if we're experiencing doubt, that there's a inverse relationship between confidence and doubt. And so we must be not having confidence. But the truth of the matter is those two things can reside in the brain at the same time. And so there's a story, Beck. I know.
00:50:22
I think I shared it at the executive directors meeting. It was originally I saw it as a proverb and then attributed to a Cherokee, old Cherokee legend. But the idea is that there's a grandfather teaching his grandson about life. And he says, there's two wolves inside of all of us, and they're constantly battling. And one wolf is very sure, very certain, very resource skilled.
00:50:48
The other wolf is anxious and worried and afraid of the fight. And when he's done saying that, the grandson says, which wolf wins? And he says, the one you feed. Right. So ultimately, remembering we have those two wolves and it's not about killing the one wolf.
00:51:04
Right. We just need to kind of like turn down the volume on the doubt and raise the volume on the things that we're saying to ourselves. The one last thing I'll say about that is the most common misstep that we make when it comes to confidence is that one of the four ways that we earn confidence, if we think of it like a currency, is hearing. And in Albert Bandura's original theory of self efficacy, it was about verbal persuasion. But who do we hear from most on the entire planet?
00:51:38
Ourselves. Right. And so really being aware of and regulating what we're saying to ourself and the validity of the messages that. That we're sending to ourselves becomes really important in turning up the volume on the confidence and turning down the volume on the doubt. Yes, Mike drop.
00:51:59
I know. So I lied. I do have one more question. Okay. I'm sorry.
00:52:02
I can't help myself. No, time's up. I'll pay the bill. It's fine. Bill me.
00:52:10
Erica, the bill's coming. I feel like right now There is a, a core group. It's not. And I don't, I want to make sure to preface. It's not about age.
00:52:18
I think some people are going to hear me say this and they're going to say, oh, yes, age, age, age. And I don't. I really try to consider myself a bit of a generational agnostic. I have a real hard time with workplace generations. I feel like it perpetuates stereotypes anyway, that's another soapbox I could go off on anyway.
00:52:31
But there's, I think there's a core group of professionals right now that I, I hear when they enter a room and they feel this need to sort of assert, well, here are all the things that I've done. And to me, that is an immediate sort of like, turn off in my brain. And I, I feel like there's a piece of advice here for professionals that are kind of trying to feel their way in. They walk into a room for the first time and they're trying to really assert themselves, right? Here's what I know.
00:53:02
Here's why I belong in this room. What do you, what do you say to that group of folks who are really trying to assert themselves in that way? Right? And it's like, okay, well, let me. I'm gonna give you my resume without.
00:53:13
You're not asking. Nobody's asking for your resume, but somehow you feel like you need to fill that space and say it, right? What's a better approach? I think a better approach is to recognize that when we're engaging with other people, like our greatest currency is our emotional intelligence and a core of that is our self awareness, right? We have to be emotionally intelligent about ourselves before we can be emotionally intelligent about other individuals.
00:53:37
And, and so if you're going to walk into a room, remember that one of the greatest strengths that you can demonstrate is self awareness. Someone who walks into a room and feels the need to convince other people of why they should be standing in front of them in that room or be in that room or have a voice in that room or a seat at that table is not necessarily recognizing the power of self awareness, right? So better to walk into that room and through your actions and through the interactions that you have with the people in it, demonstrate your strengths and establish their trust in what you can bring to the table. And I mean, it's, you know, it's old, but it works, right? Actions speak louder than words.
00:54:23
Yeah, Yeah, A million percent for sure. All right, I want to go back to the quote that you said before, and I'm going to gut check that. This is the quote. Confidence is not the absence of self doubt. It's the mastery of doubt.
00:54:34
Was that the first. Was that. Okay, all right, I'm. I'm putting it on a poster in my office. It's gonna.
00:54:39
I feel like it needs to be on a T shirt. Heather. Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
00:54:42
Dr. Vanessa Shannon. Doubt Destroyer. Yes. I don't know attribute that quote to me because I don't know if I'm verifiably the first person who ever said it. We'll do something on this podcast, right?
00:54:55
We're gonna do some deep. We're gonna do some deep Googling Google and it, you know, doubt. What was it? What did you say? Heather?
00:55:03
Doubtless. Oh, the Doubt Destroyer. Your new superhero status. So, you know, eventually we'll have a superhero, you know, little figurine. Yes.
00:55:11
Just in case you're wondering, they'll hold a fly fish fishing rod in their hands. Awesome. I was a huge Wonder Woman fan when I was young. I was very sad I didn't have dark hair like Linda Evans, but I always envisioned having those, you know, those cuff races that she wore that deflected bullets. So in my Doubt Destroyer superhero.
00:55:31
Feel free to give me those. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Wonder Woman has a whip.
00:55:35
You have a fly. Fly rod. Fly rod, golden fly rod. I love it. I love it.
00:55:43
Doubt Destroyer. Vanessa, anything else you want to share with our audience this afternoon before we close out? I mean, honestly, just thank you, like an expression of gratitude for the work that you do. I think that the job is unfortunately thankless. You know, the amount of gratitude that you receive compared to the amount of energy and time that individuals in human services are investing in the livelihood of other individuals, communities and systems is not proportional.
00:56:19
So thank you for all of the work that you do. Well, and really, that goes to our agencies, because I don't. I don't get to do that work. I simply get to. Right.
00:56:27
Provide them with folks like yourself to help them do, hopefully make their jobs a little bit easier and, you know, feel blessed to be able to do that every single day. So thank you for being a part of our. Our podcast. How can people get in touch with you if they hear this? They're like, you know what?
00:56:44
I want to talk to Vanessa. I want to get to know her more. More. Tell us how we get in touch with you. Shameless plug here.
00:56:49
Oh, great. So I'm not great on social media, but I do have Instagram and I'm gonna be better at it. It's Dr. Headstrong. Dr.
00:57:00
Headstrong. LinkedIn is honestly probably the most reliable way. I'm on LinkedIn. My Gmail, if you want to email me is probably the most reliable. It's Dr. Vanessa Shannon.
00:57:15
I have a website, but for whatever reason my email attached, my website right now keeps ending up in everyone's spam folders. So. Yeah, so LinkedIn I think is the best way to get a hold of me. Or you can go to my website, www.rest resistancetodisruption.com and you can send me a message via the website and I'll get it. There's a contact link and you can reach out and say, hello, I'd love to hear from everyone.
00:57:40
Absolutely. And if, if you didn't get any of that, you could also, of course, email info@theCAAP.org we're happy to connect you. And just so you know, as somebody who really loves to make connections with people, I know a really great social media marketing expert who can help with your online media presence. If you're looking for somebody, she may be on this podcast right now. Her name might be Heather.
00:58:00
So happy to make that connection. I'm not going to not say it's not me. And your message needs to be spread like butter everywhere. So. So not that it's not, but of course, yes, yes.
00:58:11
And also because I'm in marketing and I want to make this easy for the listeners, you can find every single link that she just said in the show notes. Absolutely. Appreciate you again, so much gratitude for you joining us today. Thank you to our listeners. Thank you for putting on your thinking CAAPs and we'll catch you on the next episode.
00:58:29
Thanks everybody. Thanks so much. Bye bye.
00:58:35
Thank you for being a part of this episode of the Thinking CAAP. Check the show notes for resources and links to other episodes and don't forget to subscribe and follow to be notified when new episodes are released. If you have any Community Action questions you'd like Beck or one of our local experts to answer in a future episode, please email your questions about community action to info@theCAAP.org.
If you have any Community Action questions you’d like Beck or one of our local experts to answer in a future episode, please email your questions about Community Action to info@thecaap.org—subject line: Thinking CAAP.